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Time Nick Message
00:40 George_ joined #evennia
00:40 George_ Greetings
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05:26 Volund okay
05:28 I'm done with 2.0 Core, MCM 2.0... (haven't implemented it on MCM yet so there may be bugs...) and lots of stuff seems to be working. On to Storyteller Core 2.0, then Exalted 2.5/3e and nWoD 2e.
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09:25 evenniacode [13evennia] 15op-hui opened issue #799: Bug: russian commands doesn't work properly 02
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09:29 naton hello guys !
09:29 sorry for markup :/
09:29 evenniacode [13evennia] 15Griatch commented on issue #799: @op-hui: Could you also post the source code for your "команда" command? 02
09:30 Griatch naton: I fixed the markup. And all activity is automatically reported in here. :)
09:32 naton ok ;-)
09:32 evenniacode [13evennia] 15op-hui commented on issue #799: ```python... 02
09:37 [13evennia] 15Griatch commented on issue #799: @op-hui I can't test this right now, but what do you get if you do `print, self.args` (prints will appear in your log/terminal) before going into ``? 02
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10:30 evenniacode [13evennia] 15op-hui commented on issue #799: Got it, put debug before 02
10:38 [13evennia] 15op-hui commented on issue #799: Bug presented in webclient and  telnet sessions 02
10:41 [13evennia] 15op-hui commented on issue #799: Between command named 'команда' and player name (named anonymous) i can put ANY THREE CHARACTERS:... 02
10:41 naton sorry for comment flood, i'm adding more information
10:41 adding new comments instead edit previous :/
10:57 evenniacode [13evennia] 15Griatch commented on issue #799: Thanks for the further info. My first guess is that his may be a regex error in Evennia's command parser, possibly it is not setting the `UNICODE` flag correctly somewhere. Will look at it tonight.  02
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14:46 Icarus Morning
14:46 George_ hi Icarus
14:46 Icarus How fairs?
14:47 fares*
14:47 Griatch Ho folks
14:50 Icarus Spending my morning documenting the functionality of OpenRPI so that we know exactly what needs to get converted over if we move it to Evennia
14:51 Griatch Icarus: A worthy cause.
14:51 * Griatch is at work
14:53 * George_ is about to go to work
14:54 Griatch George_: Heard from whitenoise lately?
14:54 George_ no I haven't Griatch, I'm not on IM either. Has anyone else?
14:55 He hasn't been in #evennia
14:55 Griatch No, I know he was on vacations, not sure if he's back yet.
14:56 jazzzu joined #evennia
15:10 Icarus I've not seen him, no
15:18 Good lord so much bloat...
15:24 Evennia makes no technical differentiation between PCs and NPCs, right?
15:34 RaDeHart Don't think so.
16:13 Icarus mmmm; that'll be another difficulty then. RPI uses different structures for NPCs and Players
16:13 so need to figure out how to merge the two
16:41 RaDeHart How so?
16:41 And is it terribly important?
16:42 Icarus Well, not terribly. Just means the character class attributes will be pretty huge
16:42 In the order of about 66 different attributes
16:44 naton hm, why i can pick object 'foobar', if i set for 'foobar' lock: @lock foobar = get:return false
16:44 @lock foobar = get:id(3333) # id 3333 doesn't exist
16:44 becuase i'm under admin account?
16:44 RaDeHart Yea probably.
16:44 @quell
16:45 naton yep, @quell
16:45 yah, that right, problem was in admin account, ty RaDehart
16:45 RaDeHart Icarus: The pc has 66 attributes? or the NP?
16:46 NPC even.
16:49 naton hm i have diffcult question, what i'm need read in evennia documentation for:
16:50 when user first login to game, some location creation only form him?
16:50 Icarus the combination of the NPC and PC OpenRPI character attributes
16:50 naton new dynamic location for new user
16:51 oh shi~, i think,i'm need add in first_login hook in CharacterObject batchomand
16:51 *batchcommand
16:52 they created new dynamicly location only for this user
16:52 RaDeHart Icarus, Maybe a different npc typeclass?
16:54 Icarus Possible red, all the same really it's not a bad thing for them to be in the same place. Lots of info to track regarding an individual character
16:56 RaDeHart it could have benefits... if you wanted to use the same method to resolve something that you do between PC's, with NPCs
16:58 Icarus Exactly
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17:01 Icarus Anyways, I'm off! Thank you guys for the input
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17:05 Feoh Folks.
17:05 My co-worker and I run a podcast on Python - Podcast.__init__ and we'd love to have some of the Evennia developers on the show to talk about the project.
17:06 It's not like a bunch of people are writing MUDs in 2015, much less in Python, with a bundled interface written in Django! I think it'd be a killer topic for a show.
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17:15 naton hm, why i can't teleport to object and dig in him? like @create box ; @tel box;
17:16 hhmmm [EE] Error: anonymous.location = коробочка creates a location loop.
17:18 wait! loop - becase default, @create put new object in my inv
17:18 lol ;-)
17:23 Feoh sorry about my very bad english, could you please explain, why is interface for mud written in Django so interesting? i'm totally noob in this IT domain.
17:23 Wigggles joined #evennia
17:23 naton i'm not developer of evennia, just user
17:34 RaDeHart Sounds really cool Feoh, you should have Griatch on.
17:35 Wigggles joined #evennia
18:01 * Griatch returns from the pub!
18:02 Feoh ;)
18:02 Griatch Feoh: Oh, hi there. I've listened to Podcast.__init__. :)
18:02 Feoh Mmm, pub :)
18:02 naton Griatch: i have soo many question for you. Can you spent some time for me? up in chat Feoh invite you to podcast!
18:03 Feoh Cool!
18:03 Griatch I liked the one with Glyph. :)
18:03 naton: Sure, what are you having issues with?
18:03 Feoh Griatch: Glad to hear! Yeah that was a great chat. He's a fun guy to talk to.
18:04 Griatch Feoh:  I've only talked to him over mail and always had good experiences.
18:04 Feoh Griatch: So might you be available to chat with us sometime the week after next?
18:05 Griatch Feoh: Sure, I would. I'm in Brussels next weekend but apart from that I will be available. Note that I'm in Sweden though, so time zones might be iffy - where are you guys?
18:06 Feoh East coast USA, but we're flexible about day or evening interviews, whatever works.
18:06 naton Griatch: in my mind i have plan like: add in user_first_login hook creating personality user flat (4-5 rooms). I think evennia possible it. For example, at first_login_hook i call @batchcommand user_flat.ev where described flat creation rules
18:06 my first question: can i pass argument to .ev files?
18:06 Griatch Feoh: Ok, sure we'll work something out. How did you come across Evennia if I may ask?
18:07 naton my second question: how i need object names ? For example Kitchen, Toilet, RestRoom, but i have many many many room with those names, because they generated per user
18:07 Griatch naton: No, you can't pass arguments to .ev files. There is generally no reason for you to trigger batchcommand functionality from inside the code either though, what are you trying to do?
18:08 naton: Not sure what you mean by second question. Are you wondering how to search those same-named rooms?
18:09 Feoh: As you notice, this is the Evennia support/community channel. :)
18:09 Feoh Griatch: What about 8 PM your time on the 15th?
18:09 Griatch Hold on, I'll check
18:09 Feoh We found Evennia originally through one of the Python project aggregators
18:09 I forget whether it was Planet Python or Python Weekly or somesuch.
18:10 Griatch Ah, Planet Python then yes; my blog is up on that.
18:10 Feoh And I immediately went "WHOA!" because I'm a mudder from wayback :)
18:10 naton Griatch: i will dynamicly create user apartment, when they has first_login, i'm suppose using .ev files for this.
18:10 Feoh So the idea of a MUD written in Python was very exciting. Also - someone developing a MUD in 2015 when the world seems to have largely moved on from text based interactive VR is fascinating to me.
18:11 Griatch naton: Cool to hear that. Technically Evennia is not a MUD though - it's a MUD-creation system, a way to create MUDs in a modern system. The people you see in here are mostly people who are using Evennia to make their own new muds.
18:12 Or MUSHes, or MUXes, or MOOs or some of the other types of MU* that Evennia supports.
18:12 Feoh Quite so you're right I was speaking imprecisely.
18:12 But if you substitute "mud creation system" for "mud" in what I said, the "Whoa" is still valid :)
18:13 naton Griatch: can i use @tel command for teleport "nowhere" and @dig ?
18:13 Griatch Feoh: I'd not blame you if you were confused, it's quite a jungle of mud-related lingo out there.
18:14 Feoh: Anyway, Tuesday the 15th seems ok for me at 8pm my time.
18:14 Feoh Awesome! We just need an email so we can confirm the date/time and a couple other details when the date gets closer and we're golden :)
18:14 Griatch naton: I don't think @tel will let you teleport to a None location. You -can- however set a location to None.
18:15 naton okay
18:15 Griatch Feoh: Np, glad you are interested. As you say, the mud world is pretty niche these days.
18:16 Feoh It is, which is unfortunate, I think there's a lot left to build in that space, which is why Evennia is so exciting.
18:16 Griatch Feoh: What kind of games did you play when you did play MUDs back in the day?
18:16 Feoh Think about all the other more common MUD builder systems, their code bases were all either in C or had a custom language like MOO or MUSHCode built in.
18:17 Griatch Yep, they are still around too - and the old-timers still swear by them (mostly).
18:17 Feoh Mostly MOO with a bit of MUSH thrown in, and a couple of MUCKs because I'm strange and enjoy FORTH :)
18:17 naton third question: how about room with broadcast property? i mean, if player make action (for example "say") in one room, npc can "hear" what he say in neighter room
18:18 i'm need implement this class, or he already exists?
18:18 Griatch Ah, we have a bunch of MUSHers in here. I personally prefer a little more "mechanics" to support my RP, but I'm primarily a roleplayer - this is a part of gaming which graphical games can't really compete with still: Outside of something like roll20, IMO there is no better roleplaying to be had outside of a MU* on the web.
18:19 Feoh Totally agreed. Kind of amazing what people built using MUSH - TrekMUSH and Pern and the rest. Some incredibly complex combat systems etc.
18:19 Griatch naton: Sure, easiest is probably to tweak your msg() hook to relay information to adjoining rooms. There are many different ways to do this.
18:20 naton thnx !
18:21 Griatch Feoh: Yep. The original creator of evennia, greg taylor (I took over development in 2010) came from the mux camp and Evennia is explicitly avoiding softcode just for the reason that we feel people these days should get to use a full programming language and a proper development environment + version control to design their games.
18:22 ([…]/wiki/Soft%20Code details this philosophy further)
18:24 Feoh Couldn't agree more - all the traditional MUD programming languages ended up becoming rather arcane. Either the language itself or the crazy code base required to make it do anything.
18:24 Think about reading complex MUSH code with the snarl of attribute rendering and escaping. Ungh :)
18:25 MOO was a bit better, but that ecosystem became impossible to understand as well.  Using a general purpose programming language is the way to go.
18:26 Griatch Feoh: Volund in here would probably agree with you - he's still a heavy mush developer although he aims to transfer to Evennia.
18:27 Feoh: Python and the frameworks we depend on tends to allow us to add features that frankly would take a very, very long time to add in a more low-level language.
18:29 * Volund awakens
18:29 Volund MY NAME WAS SAID.
18:29 Like Beetlejuice, here I am
18:29 Griatch Volund: Feoh is an old MOO player with a little MUSH thrown in, hence your name came up. :)
18:30 * Volund reads u
18:30 Volund p
18:30 Feoh Volund Volund Volund! :)
18:31 Volund Feoh:
18:31 Griatch Feoh: Interestingly, there is a growing interest in Evennia. Most people who come here are not old hats but are just keen to take the first steps towards making their own game. Some are actually learning Python at the same time.
18:31 Volund my baby. And what I'm working to re-create in Python.
18:32 That there is possibly the biggest, most modern code package of softcode available for PennMUSH or RhostMUSH.
18:32 Griatch Volund: It's finished now, then?
18:32 Volund I'm not bragging, like 8 different games keep calling on me and using it.
18:33 Feoh Congrats Volund!
18:33 Volund Griatch: yup. 2.0 core is 'finished' in that I'm now in the stage of watchin for bugs and stomping them, which is pretty easy and doesn't take much time. I'm also working on converting my Storyteller based stuff to 2.0 so I can update the Exalted and nWoD game. I've already gotten MCM's code ready.
18:33 I should be able to get back into Python within some days, maybe a week.
18:34 probably some split attention for a while though.
18:34 naton hm, strange under webclient i see newlines in room description, in kbtin (console text-baed mud client) i see no newlines, instead newline i see '\n'
18:35 Griatch naton: \n is the line ending symbol.
18:35 Not sure why your client is not recognizing it, it's nothing Evennia specific.
18:35 naton yep, i'm set @desc foobar\nbarfoo
18:35 in webclient i see descripton
18:35 foobar
18:35 barfoo
18:35 in text based mud client i see - foobar\barfoo
18:36 foobar\nbarfoo
18:36 Griatch naton: Ah, use {/ instead if you are inputing data via the game input line.
18:36 naton thnx!
18:36 Griatch The command line will escape unsafe stuff.
18:37 Feoh Griatch: Glad to hear! Plenty of fodder for the episode, and our chat today and that doc you linked has given me some ideas for questions.  I've gotta go make some money now but we're looking forward :)
18:37 Griatch Oki. :)
18:38 Could be fun. Haven't been interviewed on Evennia before.
18:44 naton Griatch:
18:45 i think use paste service more usefeull
18:49 Griatch naton: First of all, this is coded stuff, there is no reason for you to use in-game commands for this. All this can be achieved in code. For example, use evennia.create_object() to create the new room, then assign it to character.home, and finally do character.move_to(character.home) - just to take an example. If people have the same named rooms you will not be able to @tel to them without having to specify between them, normally this is ...
18:49 ... not an issue for players (they just walk between the rooms).
18:50 But you could use techniques like tagging to separate the owners of rooms. Or you could prod Kelketek to get his collab contribution finished.
18:50 Kelketek Yar.
18:51 naton Griatch: just in case, please tell me, if i'm abuse/annoying your patience
18:52 Griatch: i'm trying to collaboration with non IT-people for creating mud world, and don't will user more python-code
18:52 Griatch naton: If I don't have time, I'll just answer you later. :)
18:53 (Or someone else will)
18:53 naton: If you are to allow @tel commands for everyone, you -will- run into collisions. You can refer to objects as their name or as their #dbref.
18:54 If you use the latest Evennia you will see the #dbref of an object if you are a user with high enough permissions.
18:54 naton nope, will using @tel for automation room building, but i suppose, after you say, is not best pratice
18:55 Griatch No, batchcommands are not ideal for dynamically created content - they are for hand-crafted stuff. If you are using automation you should really be doing this in code.
18:56 It doesn't mean all users will need to use the same, but you are not a user, you are the developer.
18:57 Wow, len("приветики") is 18.
18:57 Wow, len("приветики") is 18. Double-bytes for utf-8 encoded characters maybe?
18:58 No wonder the parsing is off.
18:58 Volund that's... odd.
18:58 if logic is counting bytes and not characters that would make sense.
18:58 counting bytes would be the most efficient route, probably.
18:58 Griatch I've never heard of len() working like that though.
18:59 Volund what encoding does len() expect? I know there's string and unicode-string in Python and they're not entirely the same.
18:59 naton i remember, len in python is not better char counting for utf-8 strings
19:00 Kelketek What's len(u"приветики") then?
19:00 naton[…]pecial-characters
19:00 Griatch Volund: len handles unicode strings just fine. So len(u"приветики") is actually 9 as it should be. O_o
19:00 RaDeHart Yea, it could even be x4 really.
19:00 Kelketek "There is no such thing as plain text."
19:00 Volund but you apparently have to TELL it to be unicode.
19:01 because going without that u makes a difference.
19:01 RaDeHart unicode can be up to 4 bytes anyway.
19:01 naton hm, i'm first non-english evennia user? :]
19:01 Volund I doubt it, naton. :)
19:01 But heya from the USA.
19:02 (on my end, anyways.)
19:02 Griatch naton: No, we have Chinese users who didn't have any issues, curiously enough.
19:02 Volund so the question here Griatch is why are some strings unicode and others not, and is there an ADVANTAGE to not be using unicode for everything?
19:03 I'm not really sure how this boils down.
19:03 Simplify it for me. I do know what unicode and UTF-8 -is,- just not how it's used practically.
19:04 Griatch Volund: Evennia stores everything as unicode internally in the database, usually the only disadvantage is that when you print it in-game, unicode strings get that u"" prefix.
19:05 RaDeHart Yea, special characters are in unicode as well, they are just using double the bytes.
19:05 Griatch UTF-8 is a binary representation, the actual way to depict things. Unicode is an abstract map of a vast number of languages.
19:06 naton may be i'm must defenition all specific language things in my code as u"russian word"?
19:07 i will try it
19:07 Griatch naton: That would work, but it sounds a bit cumbersome for you; I'll see if I can tweak the parser.
19:08 naton yep, its works!
19:08 okay, but this workaround its fine for me now
19:09 Griatch naton: Actually, I just did a unicode conversion deep in the parser and this seems to have fixed it on the evennia level too.
19:10 But I don't doubt you will run into other issues with this, notably in places like string manipulation or EvTable. If you do, speak up and we'll try to fix it - you are not supposed to have to work around Evennia just because you are not using ASCII.
19:11 evenniacode [13evennia] 15Griatch pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02
19:11 13evennia/06master 14a7e42b2 15Griatch: Changed cmdparser to properly convert to unicode before length measuring, which was causing unexpected behavior with non-ASCII charsets.
19:12 Kelketek Yay string magic!
19:13 evenniacode [13evennia] 15Griatch comment on issue #799: This is resolved in a7e42b2a5bece08fa5a1ae179b3835a19cc53c7e. Closing.  02
19:13 naton Griatch: my coworker asks, evennia can working with python 3.0?
19:13 Kelketek naton: Evennia is not working with Python 3 yet, and cannot until Twisted does. Then a conversation about allowing it to support 3 can happen :)
19:13 Griatch naton: No. Our dependencies don't support python 3, so nor do we.
19:14 As Kelketek just said.
19:14 naton sorry, i'm must googling before asking, i see in documentation :/
19:15 Kelketek Griatch: I wonder if one can actually port it now. I know Twisted has had /some/ degree of Python 3 support for a while now but I've not tried doing a pip install of twisted recently from a Python 3 env
19:15 Griatch[…]master/index.html
19:16 Kelketek Ow, my framerate
19:16 naton Griatch: what better place for creating per user apartment (4-5 rooms)? in at_first_login hook?
19:16 Griatch Kelketek: If twisted.conch.client is not converted, then telnet goes out the window anyway.
19:16 For example
19:16 Kelketek Ah.
19:17 Griatch naton: Sure, sounds like a good place.
19:18 * Griatch needs to do some shopping, back in a moment
19:20 naton @tel Store
19:26 Griatch: hehe, i'm alredy try + RE.UNICODE, while waiting you, but no success
19:32 Volund <---- me, now that I've been pondering lessons learned in Python.
19:34 naton hm, i have test and production instance of evennia and my mud game, on the test server i will set Builder permission for ALL players
19:35 i'm try to insert self.permission.add('Builders') in at_first_login and at_create_char hook
19:35 but hot permissions is None type :/
19:35 when they initialized?
19:36 *self.permissions.add('Builders')
19:36 Volund uhhhhhh.
19:38 that SHOULD work
19:38 what does self.permissions.all() give you?
19:39 naton .all()?
19:39 wait, i'm recheck
19:44 Griatch naton: If all players should get builder permission, why not set it in at_player_creation() ?
19:44 I mean, you -can- set it in at_first_login I guess, but it doesn't seem to be the most proper place.
19:44 naton Volund: hmmm stange i'm uncomment strings with permissions, and thee works!
19:45 Griatch: thanks!
19:45 Volund Griatch: why the huuuuuuudge am I pondering how to optimize and cache MUSHcode? >_<
19:46 Griatch Volund: Let it go man, let it go. Down that path lay only madness! ;)
19:51 naton its will work, if i'm set TEST_SERVER in
19:52 Volund too late, I'm doingg it. D: this kinda needed a serious recode anyways.
19:58 naton AttributeError: 'Settings' object has no attribute 'TEST_SERVER'
19:59 but this code work fine
20:04 Griatch: after i'm change hook from at_first_login to at_player_creation i got error about NoneType for append operation
20:06 code and logs
20:06 i'm back to at_first_login hook
20:09 Griatch naton: if you didn't assign a variable TEST_SERVER to your settings file, then no, you will not be able to check that indeed.
20:09 naton deafbeaf
20:10 Griatch naton: You may want to look at the default at_player_creation, and put a super() in there to make sure it's called.
20:11 naton Griatch: i'm cathing AttributeError, if TEST_SERVER is not present in config, and ignore error
20:11 Griatch The error you get is likely because you are bypassing the stuff the DefaultPlayer class sets in at_player_creation.
20:11 So use super and it will work.
20:11 Ok.
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20:16 naton ok, got it
20:16 thnxdeafbeaf
20:16 oh, i'm configure my kitty (ssh client) send "deadbeaf" after 15 sec idle for diabling timeout disconnects
20:16 it's a bad idea
20:16 Ditegen joined #evennia
20:17 Griatch naton: You can just turn off timeout disconnects
20:17 naton Griatch: kitty doesn't support SSH KEEP alive packets :/
20:17 Griatch Or send "idle" which is a non-action
20:19 naton Griatch: I'm always forget to express apprecation for good abstraction levels in evennia, many other mud dictate many restrictions
20:19 another side - high entry level for evennia users ;-)
20:19 imho
20:20 Griatch Yes, the drawback of being flexible and open is that it's a bit harder to get started.
20:20 (but we do have documentation aplenty at least)
20:25 naton Griatch: I was struck, while @create/drop blackbox ; @tel blackbox ; @dig rooms ...
20:25 s/while/when/
20:26 Griatch struck?
20:26 naton oh shi~! s/struck/amazed/
20:28 Griatch Ah. :) What were you amazed about?
20:29 naton for elastic object model, i can create abstraction objects, and teleport into him, and dig rooms, and after this get this object in my inventory ;-)
20:30 you see Man in black movie? :)
20:30 Griatch Yes I did, good movie!
20:30 naton where galaxy placed on the cat's collar?
20:31 Griatch Yes, an infinite regression - universes within universes

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