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Time Nick Message
05:31 Zhwazi joined #copyfree
15:25 cgt joined #copyfree
16:37 q66 joined #copyfree
16:51 apotheon I forgot the "official meeting time: END" last week.
16:59 . . . so:
16:59 Copyfree Initiative organizational meeting START
17:01 from the relevant page on the website:
17:01 23 September 2014 Topics: Accounting, Advocacy Materials, Memberships (Continued), Merchandising
17:02 ACCOUNTING - I'm likely to pay an accountant for some advice in the "near" future (in the next couple months or so).  As for how things stand now, in this regard, there's this page:
17:03 Any questions, comments, suggestsions, requests, et cetera, are welcome.
17:04 Someone, either in the immediately previous meeting or in PMs, suggested that the finances page might be more detailed.  Apart from the fact that it's difficult to figure out exactly how to make it so, at present, considering that I basically had to cobble what's on that page together from "no accounting books so far", I'm not entirely sure what specific details the person wanted (nor who it was).
17:05 If that person is here, I hope he speaks up (here or in PMs) to renew that discussion.
17:06 vijaikumar if there is any way i could volunteer and contribute CI with any tasks whether administrative/clerical apart from the contributions in the form of donations
17:08 apotheon At any time that I'm rambling here, anyone who has anything to interject, even if it's not part of the agenda statement, is welcome to do so.  The agenda statement is basically just the stuff I anticipate talking about regardless of whether anyone else has anything to say.
17:09 vijaikumar: Thanks for that offer.  I'll think about that for a few minutes.  If you see anything, or think of anything, that you think you could do for CI, feel free to make a suggestion; if not, when I've had time to get my thoughts in order, I'll discuss that with you.
17:11 vijaikumar: The first thing that comes to mind is some research that I still haven't had time to do.  How are you at doing research on service offerings and putting together a sort of point-by-point comparison of them?  One thing that needs sorting out is what crowdfunding platform to use for a membership drive.
17:16 At present, the most interesting crowdfunding platforms I've seen that might offer what's needed for an initial membership drive seem to be IndieGoGo, Patreon, Razoo, and TiltOpen.
17:19 vijaikumar alright apotheon i will do a point-by-point comparison of the above four and also try to look for any good options
17:19 apotheon Among those, the one that currently interests me the most is TiltOpen, which is copyfree software that can be hosted on one's own servers as well as a service one can use in a manner somewhat similarly to things like IndieGoGo and Kickstarter.
17:20 That seems awfully nice, if it meets CI needs in other ways, in part because of the fact I could start with a campaign hosted by tilt and, at a later date, migrate to self-hosted management of crowdfunding if I so desire.  If it's also suited to use as a micropayment system and/or payment processor for things like credit cards, that'd be even nicer.
17:21 The ability to accept cryptocurrencies (probably with at-least-sorta automatic translation to USD) would be nice, but some other things take priority (such as the ability to accept payments via credit card).
17:21 vijaikumar about that.. what is the current demographic? or is it too soon to tell.. Credit cards might restrict some willing people
17:22 apotheon I want to accept more than *just* credit cards.  Micropayment services will also be important.  CI will also probably need to accept PayPal somehow, for instance, though if that can be done through the crowdfunding platform rather than directly that would be preferable.
17:23 vijaikumar: What payment methods do you think might be needed other than cryptocurrencies, PayPal, and credit cards?
17:23 vijaikumar paypal takes a cut doesn't it apotheon... but so does most of them
17:23 apotheon Everything takes a cut.
17:24 vijaikumar apotheon: may be i can dig a little deeper than that on payment method too
17:24 apotheon The crowdfunding platform would take a cut, as well.  I would obviously like to minimize the cut lost to intermediaries, but I'll just have to accept that some funds will be lost to intermediaries and try to plan around that.
17:24 zacts hi
17:24 vijaikumar its one of the most important things.. people like when they are given options don't they
17:24 apotheon zacts: hi
17:24 vijaikumar: Yeah, I want to make it as easy as (reasonably) possible for people to commit some funds.
17:25 zacts I seriously like the idea of a deadhead yin yang (c/f) t-shirt
17:26 apotheon zacts: Okay.  If you (or anyone else) can figure out how to get someone with the skills to create that kind of thing without me spending a bunch of money, I'd love to see it.
17:27 zacts apotheon: I know of a t-shirt / sticker shop in town they do custom designs
17:27 and are pretty cheap from what I remember
17:28 apotheon zacts: Some arrangements could be made to pay the person after some acceptable logo(s) make(s) an appearance based on the outcome of a crowdfunding campaign with logo-bearing swag among "stretch goals", I think, but prior to money coming in I have no funds to spare for logo design.
17:28 zacts ok
17:29 vijaikumar thats good thinking.. as it was discussed earlier.. do we still have gifting memberships on the table?
17:29 apotheon I'd obviously need to see and approve any logos or other graphics for the campaign, and then actually raise some money through the campaign before giving anyone any money.  I'm not going to spend rent money on a logo.
17:30 vijaikumar: Yeah, gifting memberships is definitely something I'd like to do.  It depends to some extent on the crowdfunding platform, I think.
17:31 By the way, on the accounting issue . . . if anyone has any advice on how best to go about choosing a good accountant for my purposes (figuring out my options going forward for CI organizational status and fundraising, without breaking my bank account before getting anything done), I'd love to hear about it.
17:32 MEMBERSHIPS - A members-only mailing list for pseudo-internal discussion of organizational matters might be a good idea, I think, for something that adds value both to being a paying member and to CI itself.
17:33 The mailing list could also be a distribution channel for a "newsletter" for members, which was another thing someone suggested as a membership characteristic.
17:34 I still haven't really gotten enough feedback to know what people would like to see as membership characteristics to be able to figure out what membership-related costs I should investigate as part of figuring out crowdfunding campaign goals.
17:35 As things stand, it seems like:
17:36 * private membership status page is necessary
17:36 * optional public profile page seems like a good idea
17:36 * swag discounts for later merchandise sales seems like a good idea
17:37 * everything else brought up has, at best, gotten mixed reviews or been ignored; at worst, is an idea that will almost certainly never be implemented (e.g. domain and web hosting for members)
17:38 vijaikumar web hosting for members is definitely not a good idea
17:38 email as discussed is a good thing though... its more of a merchandise itself too
17:38 apotheon There's just too much administrative overhead, infrastructure cost expansion, and potential legal liability attached to that, to say nothing of the fact it's about 100% unrelated to being a member of CI.
17:39 Oh, right, email forwarding was another one.
17:39 * apotheon makes a more obvious note to himself about that for future reference.
17:42 zacts bbl I have class
17:42 apotheon zacts: have fun
17:42 zacts k thanks
17:42 apotheon ADVOCACY MATERIALS - There are a few advocacy materials ideas I'd like to nail down.
17:44 At the moment, I'm focusing mostly on trying to figure out how to address, and draw in, people who aren't already licensing-conscious software people.  Addressing the needs of digital musicians, online original video purveyors, essay and ebook writers, and other people outside of what we expect to see in the IRC community, seems like a really good idea to me.
17:44 Two basic categories of these people occur to me:
17:45 1. people online who need a quick introduction to copyfree policy and the copyfree initiative to catch their attention, engage their imagination, and get them at least using good licensing as well as possibly even supporting CI
17:45 2. people in meatspace that could be drawn in through face-to-face interactions and/or stumbling across some kind of advocacy marketing materials
17:46 For point 1, I'm mostly thinking at this time in terms of how best to A) address what seems important to them, B) get across the basic ideas of copyfree policy and license choice, and C) not bore them to tears . . .
17:48 . . . all in one not-TL;DR page, or even part of a page.  At present, I'm guessing that a rewrite of at least the first half of the homepage might be in order, but I'm having a pretty difficult time figuring out how to do that appropriately.I've also considered registering another domain, like, for a mostly-one-page site intended specifically to draw new people into
17:48 copyfree policy, offering a quick onramp to the Copyfree Initiative if they get interested enough to not just use copyfree licenses but even support the underlying community and so on.
17:49 For point 2, I'm thinking about how to succinctly lay out the basics (probably in textual form, possibly with an "elevator pitch" pithy summation as a hook) so that someone trying to get the point across to someone new doesn't have to drone on with stumbling attempts to articulate the ideas.
17:50 Right now, my favorite idea is basically a card that folds in half to about the size of a standard business card, with a short explanation and URI inside the fold, and some kind of basic community-and-CI contact information and slogan on the outside.
17:51 Other possibilities that have occurred to me are a standard business card format, a trifold brochure (which I'm sure would just go straight into the trash), a booklet of some kind . . . and I don't recall anything else right now.
17:51 If anyone has any suggestions for either of these points, or for additional points to add to the list, *please* let me know.
17:58 vijaikumar apotheon: where do we stand on social networking sites and such for reaching out?
17:59 apotheon I'm absolutely atrocious at using "social networking" sites, so there isn't really any outreach going on in that realm for the CI itself.  Someone I know through IRC has a copyfree-related Facebook page, and he has suggested associating it with the CI, but the content he posts there is so out of sync with the approach I'd like to keep the CI using that it would be a horrible idea to officially
17:59 associate that Facebook page with the CI site.
18:00 I'd like to get some kind of CI-related presence on various social networking sites, as long as I don't have to manage that myself and the way it's all managed isn't contrary to the CI approach to things.
18:01 vijaikumar apotheon: you could manage twitter alone yourself and leave the rest to the community
18:01 apotheon That Facebook page is basically pure hate and bile toward RMS and the GPL with some positive marketing for some stuff that really should not receive official CI endorsement, from what I recall of it, so just "deputizing" the guy managing that page as a representative of the CI is not something I'm comfortable doing.
18:02 I've been trying to manage Twitter presence myself, and the end result has been that a CopyfreeNews Twitter account gets a small handful of updates once every few months, I think.  Seriously, I'm *bad* at that stuff.
18:02 I was kinda active on it for a while, but it didn't last.
18:04 vijaikumar ok.. you do have a lot on your shoulder considering the amount of work.. so how about leave it to the community altogether
18:04 apotheon Sounds great, if I can get people to commit enough time.
18:05 Okay, I have an idea:
18:05 vijaikumar it could really help to draw people from both categories
18:08 apotheon If there are enough people interested in taking on the task of maintaining a "social networking" presence for the CI, I'll tackle one "social network" at a time.  The approach I think would work is A) I set up a CI organizational account; B) I get some volunteer(s) to use their own accounts to produce good content; C) I'll repost their stuff for a while; D) when I feel I've got enough of a
18:08 pattern of behavior for their contributions, I'll pick someone to put in charge of maintaining the CI organizational account.
18:08 How does that sound?
18:09 vijaikumar yep sounds good..
18:13 i think some sort of monitoring would avoid false endorsements and advertising that you mentioned earlier
18:16 apotheon right
18:17 Now I just need to get at least one person to volunteer enough time posting stuff on Twitter that is specifically copyfree and CI oriented to get things rolling, I guess.
18:17 I'll post notes on the CI "social networking" plan somewhere visible to those who are interested, I guess.
18:19 vijaikumar yes.. maybe create a page for volunteering/outreach
18:19 and add similar stuff there
18:20 could be easy for the ones who are interesting in volunteering to find out their options
18:22 cgt apotheon: By the way, I messaged that guy on enwiki last week, but I never got a response.
18:23 but he hasn't been active since 2014-08-27
18:26 apotheon cgt: thanks for the info
18:26 He might still respond.  That was less than a month ago.
18:26 cgt yeah
18:27 apotheon vijaikumar:[…]/wiki?name=Social
18:31 vijaikumar that oughta do it apotheon. i hope that list grows
18:32 apotheon Yeah, me too.
18:33 cgt who's Chad?
18:33 apotheon me
18:33 cgt I see
18:33 hi Chad
18:34 another piece of the puzzle falls into place!
18:34 apotheon I made a link of the name.[…]/wiki?name=Social
18:34 That should help.
18:37 cgt "copyright abolitionist"
18:37 I like that
18:37 apotheon I'm a copyright abolitionist, but it's not something I want to directly advertise as the director of the CI.
18:38 cgt sure
18:38 apotheon CI policy is officially not copyright abolition.  Rather, it is promotion of copyfree licensing policy.
18:39 cgt That is a reasonable stance
18:39 apotheon . . . so anyone who wants to promote or employ such policy can contribute to CI efforts without worrying that such contributions will be specifically directed to goals contrary to the person's actual aims and beliefs.
18:40 Any copyright abolition efforts I make will not be on behalf of, or specifically supported by, the CI.
18:40 cgt right
18:40 apotheon It just happens that I think copyfree licensing gaining widespread currency would also help the efforts of copyright abolition.  Others probably think it will not, and do not want to abolish copyright.  If we can agree on methods but not goals, I'm happy to get their help with the methods.
18:41 So . . . do you use Twitter much, cgt . . . ?
18:41 cgt No
18:41 apotheon (or vijaikumar or winny or whomever)
18:42 Wanna?
18:42 cgt I strongly dislike Twitter
18:42 and Twitter culture
18:42 vijaikumar i am on twitter apotheon
18:42 i occasionally post stuff there too
18:42 cgt The worst part is when people actually say "hashtag"
18:43 vijaikumar how far are we on today's agenda apotheon ?
18:49 apotheon vijaikumar: I haven't mentioned merchandising in any particularity -- it just kinda came up in passing.
18:50 I guess at this point that, and any feedback anyone might have to offer on that or already mentioned agenda items, constitutes the whole of the remaining agenda.
18:51 I'm not sure there's much to mention about merchandising in particular, actually.  "I would like to have a swag shop for the CI.  Discounts for members could be good.  Making some merchandise items into stretch goals and/or high-donation bennies for the membership drive might be cool too."  There.  I think that's what I hve to say about it at this time.
18:51 s/hve/have/
18:56 vijaikumar: I'll try to make a point of checking the CopyfreeNews account once a day for a while, and repost stuff that I think is good for dissemination in some "official" representative capacity.  I'll go there today and cull the "following" list for CopyfreeNews to cut down on the noise I see so I can more easily pick out the good stuff.
18:57 vijaikumar sure
18:59 apotheon fuck, Twitter annoys me
18:59 too JavaScript-heavy
18:59 * apotheon waits for stuff to load.
19:00 cgt apotheon: that's another reason not to use Twitter
19:00 apotheon Err, sorry.  I should try to keep that frustration out of this channel, I suppose.
19:00 cgt Computers are so fast yet "webapps" are so slow
19:10 apotheon I just posted the second thing this month on CopyfreeNews, and the second thing since April.
19:12 . . . and added a third for the month (and third since April)
19:13 Now I'll just try to make sure I check CopyfreeNews once a day, repost stuff that looks good for the CopyfreeNews purpose, and see what else needs to be cut from the "followed" list.
19:18 Okay, things seem to have ground to a halt for now.  I'm calling it.
19:18 Copyfree Initiative organizational meeting END
19:19 . . . but anyone who wants to message me about CI issues here, in ##copyfree, or via PM is still welcome to do so.  I don't guarantee I will answer immediate (I may not actually be at a computer 24/7), but I will certainly keep an eye out for any messages that address me by IRC /nick.
19:20 vijaikumar great :)
19:22 apotheon I just have to put that END in there as a guesstimate of where the relevant part of the logs is encapsulated for those who may wish to read meeting activity later.
21:03 winny i am a twitter ab-user
21:27 apotheon winny: How would you like to contribute to the CI effort by aiming some copyfree-related tweets my way?
21:27 (or, rather, aiming them at the CopyfreeNews twitter account)
21:28 AFK for a bit; will check back more later
23:30 Hmm.
23:31 Hey, cgt winny vijaikumar zacts . . . do any of you have any suggestions/requests for topics to be included in the agenda for next week?
23:32 Anyone else here can chime in on that too, especially if you'll be here for the meeting next week.
23:33 zacts something like evaluating / designing copyfree licenses for non-software works such as music / art / writings would be cool
23:33 I would like to advertise copyfree for my music / essays / etc..
23:33 especially when I can find someone to design a better logo
23:34 18
23:46 apotheon zacts: OWL and COIL were specifically designed to be applicable to many different media.
23:46 Notice they don't say anything about software, unlike licenses such as MIT/X11 License or Simplified BSD License.
23:47 zacts: CC0 and Unlicense are also at least somewhat suitable to that.

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