All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:16 evdemo [Public] tomokoNALS just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
00:17 [Public] tomokoNALS disconnected from the Evennia demo.
01:18 [Public] Angela just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
01:21 [Public] Angela disconnected from the Evennia demo.
01:41 DiscordBot <Trayes> If I am holding an item, does that mean it is in my inventory?
01:44 Volund by default yes
01:44 ... probably
01:44 DiscordBot <Trayes> okay so I need to create the concept of hands
02:05 Volund whew. almost done refactoring this mess
02:23 DiscordBot <Trayes> When a mech is being piloted, is there a way from me to change the name of the mech (from whatever it is) to MechName+Player Name?  For example: Mech Name = Stalker Player name = Trayes  Name shown = [Stalker] Trayes
02:28 Volund well you may not want to change the ACTUAL name of the mech but you can certainly change its appearance. have a look at the obj.get_display_name() method
02:28 DiscordBot <Trayes> Thank you
02:28 <Trayes> and yes I only wanted to change the display name. What people see
02:32 Volund one of the things that I've been learning is how much SMOKE AND MIRRORS is involved in programming
02:32 it's really surprising
02:33 DiscordBot <Chason> how so?
02:34 Volund well like
02:35 let's say you're playing one of those FPS games where you have to hop into an elevator ride that lasts about 10 seconds or so while some dude's yammering missions details at you
02:36 did you know that the reason the developers stuck you in an elevator for 10 seconds isn't ACTUALLY so you can hear about mission details, but so that you CANNOT SEE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE ELEVATOR because they're taking this opportunity to unload HUGE chunks of the map and graphics assets and instead load the next section?
02:36 smoke and mirrors.
02:37 DiscordBot <Chason> ahh I see what you mean. Very common in games
02:45 Volund City Escape in Sonic Adventure 2 is VERY Smoke and Mirrors
02:45 like so
03:12 evdemo [Public] cqc123321 just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
03:14 [Public] cqc123321 disconnected from the Evennia demo.
04:06 Volund pondering if it's smart or even possible to subvert the contentshandler into what I want it to be... I THINK I can do it
04:13 evdemo [Public] Tarhilion just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
04:15 [Public] Tarhilion disconnected from the Evennia demo.
04:16 Volund yeah I -THINK- subverting the ContentsHandler into doing what I want would help
04:26 evdemo [Public] jonnyboy just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
04:26 [Public] jonnyboy disconnected from the Evennia demo.
04:38 Volund or... maybe not...
04:55 so Griatch I've been thinking about this code for the Dragon Ball game and I realized... it does some neat shenanigans. so if you have a 'canteen' you can drink from it if it has water inside? Makes sense. you can do this by 'drink canteen' or 'drink water', but the WATER SHORTCUT STOPS WORKING ONCE IT IS EMPTY. in fact, the 'water' keyword only works if it in fact contains water
04:56 similarly...
04:56 DiscordBot <Chason> The UX designer in me hates that...
04:56 Volund yeah I was just pondering.
04:56 castlelore context sensitive parser :-)
04:57 Volund actually i was thinking of a different approach
04:58 what if had another mode where instead of searching for KEYS or Attributes, it called an overloadable hook of some sort that could spit out all of the words that the object should respond to? (Which probably is its key, but may be other things too.)
04:58 DiscordBot <Chason> my current insanity is thinking about writing a substitute datetime module and monkey patching it into gametime, getting rid of the need for a custom_gametime module entirely
04:58 Volund that would make a lot of cool stuff that the game I'm trying to mimic does
04:59 work
04:59 like how you can always be targeted by the name of your race even if people know your name
05:00 or maybe I'm not thinking about this right. maybe these are aliases you just have?
05:00 perhaps the canteen gains the 'water' alias when you fill it?
05:05 yeah I was an idiot
05:05 aliases are how you do that
05:05 however it doesn't solve the 'people targeting you with your name' issue that still remains....
05:05 I should look at how RPSystem does that and, if so, how
05:36 evdemo [Public] llhbadboy just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
05:40 [Public] llhbadboy disconnected from the Evennia demo.
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13:30 Volund so quiet here
13:30 heya Kardon
13:32 slackfriarzen <friarzen> started today.
13:35 Volund heh
13:36 slackfriarzen <friarzen> The "One Room" theme makes for an interesting design challenge.
13:37 Volund I'm currently focused on just making my code stuffs so :|
13:37 anyway
13:37 progress is good. I've mostly scrapped Athanor and reassembled it into a mygame that'll stand on its own like Arx
13:41 slackfriarzen <friarzen> on the one hand, Evennia makes it really easy to avoid that limitation, just have one DefaultRoom derived object contain the game, and derive all other "rooms" from DefaultObject instead, but...that feels like a cheesy loophole.  Sticking with the spirit of the theme, I think I have a workable during-apocalypse game where everybody sees the default Limbo room as their own vault.
13:44 <friarzen> Gonna just distribute Athanor as a 'game base'?  That makes sense to me.
13:46 <friarzen> That reminds me of the old term "MudLib" from my LPmud days.
13:47 <friarzen> like Dead souls or Nightmare.
13:58 Volund It's my HOPE that if there are any major changes or updates to Athanor, existing git games will be able to pull them and merge.
13:58 ewrrr
13:58 existing games will be able to sue git
13:58 ... use
13:58 I can type in the morning really
13:59 I just need to warm up
14:01 Originally I didn't think that would really be possible, mind you, hence why I wanted to make my thing a wholly separate, self-contained library that you import from
14:01 But now that my git skills have improved, I see how viable it really is to merge projects to receive updates and make changes here and there. as long as they're not TOO wildly divergent.
14:02 I'm still cleaning this mess up though and working towards Phase 1
14:04 Phase 1 is going to be getting this ready to use for freeform games like Multiverse Crisis MUSH. so, the job system, account-based BBS, Faction system, character-based communications, channels, roleplay logger, Zone system and teleport/summon/join-based grid navigation
14:05 Phase 2 introduces MUD elements such as Prototype-based objects for an inventory and the equipment slots, weight/volume/item stacks and etc as discussed earlier. It might also have NPC shopkeepers and currency. This would be useful for some OTHER games that want things a little crazier but are still largely driven by characters rolling dice.
14:06 Phase 3 would be where I start throwing in real MUD elements - a framework for buffs/status effects/transformations/etc, actions/states like sitting, resting, standing, fighting, sleeping, whatever. Perhaps Mobiles and quests if I can wrangle it.
14:07 Phase 4 and onwards is where I start doing some crazy things like spaceships and crafting systems
14:08 for base Athanor, I'm going to take an approach similar to Evennia itself. All of these tools will be here, ready to use, but they make no hard assumption about what kind of game you're going to make. Like, equipment slots aren't going to be difficult to entirely rework to have different names and be for different bodytypes. different characters could easily have whole different slots even.
14:09 And I'll be throwing in a CRAPLOAD of hooks that can prevent things from happening or make more things happen
14:11 I think I've got a good plan. :D
14:16 I think what I ought to do at the moment is focus on small improvements to Evennia and dumping all of my big things into Athanor. Then when I have something substantial to show off, it can be pored over.
14:17 slackfriarzen <friarzen> Yeah, that's very similar to the kinds of things Dead Souls and Nightmare provided on top of the base LPmud parser.
14:18 Volund I am unfamiliar with those but ok!
14:19 at present my main hurdle to Phase 1 is Channels
14:19 need to make them look fancier and be more customizable.
14:20 although I have actually come to an altogether different realization.
14:28 it occurs to me that .msg() is a complex piece of work.
14:29 ... I just realized the best way to handle a roleplay log, too
14:34 slackfriarzen <friarzen> Oh?
14:36 <friarzen> I've heard "no logging" mentioned several times as a consistent complaint against the webclient, so I'm always interested in the topic.
14:40 Volund well
14:40 I'm thinking ROLEPLAY LOGS which is a bit different from logging what hits your screen
14:40 now the way I handle this on PennMUSH is...
14:40 * Griatch has some nice ideas for the One-Room challenge, but I'm so damn busy this time of year. Apart from Evennia, I'm also trying to get that Camp NaNoWriMo going (haven't done nearly as much as I hoped) as well as some art projects.
14:41 Volund I used @hook to REPLACE the built-in say, @emit, pose, etc, commands with special custom-coded ones that check to see if you've configured to log your stuff to a specific 'scene log'
14:41 if so, and the scene log is active and some other checks pass, the custom command logs your stuff to SQL
14:42 ... But I'm wondering if maybe a better approach for Evennia would be to, like...
14:42 summon the RP Log Fairy to hover in the room and observe
14:44 that approach could've worked in PennMUSH too, I just chose to be a bit weird and had reason to want to add some separation.
14:44 it looks like the before/after message hooks might be useful for things too. I'm not sure
14:45 I'm really working hard at kicking my assumptions to the curb here.
14:46 You dunno how much of a leap for logic it is for me to change how the system works.
14:46 but what I mean is
14:49 .msg() is very powerful. it is INCREDIBLY powerful in fact. it's amazing for switch-routing messages around to their final receiver with things like .msg_contents()
14:50 but there is one problem
14:51 I'm having trouble figuring out how much of its responsibilities are showing the message to the recipient, and how much of it is formatting the message. obj.at_say() is making me squint
14:51 at_say is amazing
14:52 I think we need more of that action.
14:56 DiscordBot <grace_defendus> i'm very interested in the idea of an rp log fairy for evennia lol - i'm trying to figure out some kind of logging system for my project as well
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14:59 DiscordBot <grace_defendus> i have a small off topic question if anyone knows how i can refer to the player character's name (the character name or account name - it's the same for this proj) inside of an evmenu that is sitting on an npc. i'm using the talkative npc contrib so self.caller doesn't refer to the player character. in every bit of info i can find, people seem to suggest that it is possible to refer to a different character from inside of evmenu,
14:59 but i can't figure out exactly how to do it - user.username throws an error and i don't know enough about the inner workings to figure out how to point to the account name
15:02 Griatch grace_defendus: The menu sits on the npc, but caller should still be the one actually using the menu
15:02 Volund There's been a lot of updates to EvMenu, and it can now be initialized with a dictionary of options or something that's retained throughout the execution. I think.
15:02 ah Griatch to the rescue
15:03 DiscordBot <grace_defendus> oh gotcha! thanks so much
15:03 Volund Griatch: I -really- need to pick apart how .msg() and .msg_contents() works before I progress much further. since I think they'll be... important.
15:06 when I first came at this project my approach was to just rip out and replace things. because, in all honesty, it was to hard for me to understand it.
15:06 and it didn't do exactly what I wanted. trouble is
15:06 at the time, I didn't know exactly what I wanted either.
15:07 But now I'm trying to figure out how to take the path of least resistance.
15:07 and build something awesome that'll make the most use of what's already there
15:08 Griatch I like that approach :)
15:11 Volund Griatch: So I'm about 80% done rewiring Athanor into a self-contained mygame. still got a lot of re-organization to do, but I've ditched the complicated load process and the managers/helpers and all of taht overengineered mess and I'm just focusing on creating something. Progress is good. I've got it booting. I have the Factions, BBS, and Jobs scripts launching with the global scripts. I've still gotta turn around and work on those
15:11 Evennia pull requests though. I've taken another look at how stuff works and I think what I want can be added in without much hassle
15:14 still not sure what the best way of handling inventory is
15:14 but that's phase 2
15:20 slackfriarzen <friarzen> Volund, sounds like you have broken your NIH syndrome, congrats
15:25 DiscordBot <Volund> My what
15:25 evdemo [Public] Carstan just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
15:26 pinkmagicdev joined #evennia
15:27 evenniacode [wiki] Panzerbyte updated evennia/wiki: [edited]: Version-Control (Version Control) ([…]i/Version-Control)
15:32 evdemo [Public] Carstan disconnected from the Evennia demo.
15:47 slackfriarzen <friarzen> NIH "Not Invented Here"
15:48 <friarzen> Everyone has it to some degree.
15:50 <friarzen> sometimes there are good reasons to reinvent the wheel, but often it just seems easier to reinvent, rather than learn why the wheel is round and has an axle first.
15:52 <friarzen> breaking that reflexive NIH-habit is hard, though.
15:59 DiscordBot <Thenomain> I've been known to reinvent the wheel just so I know how it works.
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16:21 Volund ah
16:21 yeah I'm currently pondering some things because
16:22 .msg() appears to do an excellent job of relaying things around and keeping track of where it originally came from
16:23 I see that .at_say() does some kind of magic for replacing text as it formats it, too
16:25 but I'm pondering how the MUD I play at can do similar placeholder magic but it does so for generic messages emitted to the room. where the target sees one thing but everyone else sees a different message.
16:25 There are often three perspectives to this
16:25 Two people involved in the act, and onlookers.
16:26 all of which are placeholders that must be replaced on reception
16:26 {actor} strikes {victim} with a mighty blow, knocking {victim.possessive} to the ground!
16:27 would be seen as Dude strikes you with a mighty blow, knocking you to the ground!
16:27 or
16:27 You strike Dude with a mighty blow, knocking him to the ground!
16:27 Dude1 strikes Dude2 with a mighty blow, knocking him to the ground!
16:27 How do this kinda thing I wonder
16:27 Griatch The str.format() is perfect for this
16:28 Volund err that'd be objective ot possessive
16:32 I need to look at how that works. :)
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17:01 Volund hrrrm...
17:01 passing a dict as **kwargs to str.format() ?
17:01 ooh
17:02 I see, that's what you're already doing basically
17:10 okay so what I need to do is overhaul various announce_move and msg_contents things to be aware of a lot more things and then create a big dictionary
17:10 okay that's a lot simpler than I first thought it would be.
17:10 Python is awesome
17:11 msg_contents can handle the perspective alterations
17:11 IE: replace {actor} with 'You' when actor == you
17:15 ooooh
17:24 Griatch Finally getting some art done again:
17:24 DiscordBot <Thenomain> Heh, cute.
17:25 <Thenomain> Also nice.
17:26 Griatch Thanks, haven't taken the time for way too long
17:27 DiscordBot <Thenomain> Deviant's first random suggested from your gallery is 'morning routine' and it's a delightful little story about a woman popping a zit.
17:27 rnmissionrun joined #evennia
17:28 Griatch Haha, I've gotten a lot of comments on that one of the form "That's me EVERY morning" ... ;)
17:29 evdemo [Public] woe just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
17:37 [Public] woe disconnected from the Evennia demo.
17:38 Volund Griatch I just had an idea
17:38 DiscordBot <Thenomain> Animated gifs in Evennia!
17:39 Volund Character.how_do_I_look_to_you(looker, dict_prefix) which returns a dict meant to be formatted sith str.format(). dict_prefix is something like 'actor' so it would return a dict that looks like {'': 'blargh', 'actor.possessive': 'his'}
17:45 oh I LIKE this idea
17:45 I like this a LOT
17:53 DiscordBot <Thenomain> character.appearance()?
17:53 <Thenomain> Wait. Griatch. Have you put work into Gimp and/or Krita?
17:58 Volund well obviously I wouldn't call the method that
17:58 it was an example
17:58 I'm just hashing out ways to structure this stuff for maximum flexibility
18:02 oh. OH MAN
18:02 this is glorious
18:03 there's really only one problem left. and it's one I can easily solve with custom code
18:07 Griatch Thenomain: No, I have no code-contributions to GIMP/Krita (although I used them for art very early). My contributions extend to a bug report here and there.
18:13 Volund Griatch: So it's kinda surprising how often Evennia does -almost- what I want it to do... but not quite. but I'm now good enough at reading HOW stuff like .search() works to make my own thing
18:13 it used to be too intimidating
18:16 I'm pondering more and more how that game works as it relates to Evennia and I've come to the following conclusions
18:17 the drink command can target any object in your inventory, but it's SOMEHOW sensitive to the name of the contained liquid. if a canteen contains water, you can drink water and it drinks from the canteen. but when the canteen is empty, drink water no longer works unless something else contains water.
18:17 I realize now that the most evennia-like way to do this is to add 'water' as an alias to the canteen and remove it when it's empty.
18:17 but that's not quite how it works, since you can't 'get water'. it's somehow context-sensitive to the operation.
18:18 the RPSystem DOES do a good job at having the sdesc be a thing though.
18:19 but I've been thinking of the best way to model 'what the DB game does' and I think the answer is...
18:20 if every Object had a method that would take two arguments: the looker, and the KIND of operation. It would return a bunch of words that the object COULD be targeted by. which would include nicks and aliases sure.
18:21 so liquid containers would automatically append their contents to this returned list
18:22 I'm getting a LOT better at this.
18:23 get all.martial backpack
18:23 it's all coming together in my head here :D
18:25 obj.get_keys(looker, operation=None, **kwargs)
18:26 oh yeah this works beautifully
18:26 I now know -exactly- how to handle that game's targeting system
18:27 in fact a simple regex can do the job beautifully
18:28 I really like that game because you can do something like
18:28 get all all.corpse
18:28 which is 'retrieve ALL items from ALL corpses'
18:30 ahhhhh my mind is on fire
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19:28 evdemo [Public] hop just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
19:31 [Public] hop disconnected from the Evennia demo.
19:32 [Public] noctis disconnected from the Evennia demo.
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19:44 DiscordBot <Trayes> Maybe someone here can help me find a tutorial about building a system for Distance and Range.   For example I want 4 Distance (Long, Medium, Short, Melee) and I want skills to follow those range limitations.
19:45 slackfriarzen <friarzen> not sure what you are asking.  That is usually very system dependent.
19:48 DiscordBot <Trayes> While in a room, lets say an enemy is a Long range away from me. I need to advance on the enemy to get within range of my skills. Lets say I want to punch it. I would need to advance. This would take me from Long to Medium. I would repeat 2 more times to get into melee range so that I can attack
19:49 slackfriarzen <friarzen> most game systems differentiate between Melee attacks and ranged attacks.  some games try to mimic "weapon accuracy" like blunderbuss/shotgun versus archery/rifles,
19:50 DiscordBot <Trayes> Do you know if there are any tutorials for evennia on that? I couldnt find any
19:50 slackfriarzen <friarzen> there are vastly approaches for how those differences translate into a workable system
19:50 <friarzen> vastly different...
19:51 rnmissionrun Eh, there's really no good way to handle ranges on text based games :/
19:51 slackfriarzen <friarzen> it could be as simple as melee skills only attack stuff in the same room, and short medium and long skills shoot targets 1, 2 or 3 rooms away...
19:52 <friarzen> It could be as complex as what I'm doing for my game, where there is a 2D active map, and you target using distance formula calculations.
19:52 DiscordBot <Trayes> I just stared playing muds just over a week ago and the one I played is called Dragon Realms. It uses a range system that seemed pretty clean. I guess  I will just need to research more.
19:54 <Trayes> It's NP. What is sounds like, is that there is no easy answer.  I will put it on the back burner for now.
19:54 rnmissionrun I've tried various systems, from simple room topography settings to roughly determine it's size and cover  options, to 2d grids with facings and such.
19:56 Trayes, are you aware of the existence of BtechMUX? It has fully coded Battletech combat, maps and such. It's pretty neat
19:56 The source code is freely available
19:56 Volund I may just have to yoink tht to study
20:00 slackfriarzen <friarzen> The good ol: article
20:01 DiscordBot <Thenomain> For those still wondering, here's a good Mushism: I'm designing a system based on madness. I could create a system that you type a command and it does all the number-crunching and applies the sanity damage. Instead, I'm making the process: Decide if you take damage with some situations, then apply the damage to yourself if that's what the situation finds.
20:01 <Thenomain> It's not consent, per se, it's just based on the scene and people in it and the rules being applied.
20:03 rnmissionrun The real problem with these systems is not can they be done, it's getting people to play on the game once the code is done :/
20:03 DiscordBot <Thenomain> Isn't that true for all of it?
20:03 rnmissionrun It depends on the game.
20:04 A game focused on combat is going to be a very vary hard sell today. A RPG with lords and ladies? Will have no problem finding players. Same wiith any type of WoD except maybe Changeling, Mummy or Demon
20:09 slackfriarzen <friarzen> I was talking to a group of kids from my college the other day, they all basically loved the idea of a Mud...right up until they learned they couldn't just go try it out on their phone.
20:11 rnmissionrun lol
20:11 slackfriarzen <friarzen> As far as I can tell, the old-timer's insistence on keeping all the old bullshit like telnet clients and such is what is actually killing the genre.  not the lack of interest.
20:12 evdemo [Public] sabjorn just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
20:12 [Public] sabjorn disconnected from the Evennia demo.
20:13 rnmissionrun I've heard that said many times but in an age where everyone has a smartphone and is used to the concept of needing a special app for everything, getting people to d/l app doesn't /seem/ like it should be a problem
20:13 Volund the good news is that Evennia isn't dependent on telnet
20:13 it would be child's play to create a progressive web app wrapper that just connects to the Evennia websocket
20:14 or for that matter
20:14 just make an app that connects to Evennia websockets and does things
20:14 BUT
20:14 slackfriarzen <friarzen> heh, I will beg to differ on the 'child's play' part, having just spent the better part of 3 months rewriting the webclient....
20:14 Volund the problem is you still -really- should have a proper keyboard
20:15 slackfriarzen <friarzen> but yeah, much of the problem is the MUX syntax and lack of things like font scaling, and such.
20:16 Volund font scaling is a client side issue
20:16 not the game server
20:16 slackfriarzen <friarzen> me a phone mud client that supports it?
20:17 Volund I haven't tried any other than mukluk and only ever used it to pass a few messages around
20:17 honestly I don't think phones are a good platform though. they're too tiny
20:17 slackfriarzen <friarzen> technically, my phone has a higher resolution display than my desktop does.
20:18 <friarzen> but trying to read 10pt fonts on it while the keyboard app eats up half of that display real-estate (for a less-than-complete keyboard) is miserable.
20:19 rnmissionrun You're not going to get the same level of engagement from users of mobile devices of conventional PCs anyway. The screens are too small, the connection is often not constant due to switching in and out between LTE/Wireless/ etc, and input for anything more complex that a simple sentence is a PITA
20:19 err than*
20:20 Volund btw I hope I don't come off liek a jerk by saying I'm going to focus all of my serious efforts for this mygame-Athanor. I -really want- something I can USE and show to people as 'yeah, THIS IS VIABLE'
20:20 and I want it like, yesterday
20:21 and while I'm fully willing to throw in more improvements to Evennia directly I'm not willing to slow down my development of my actual project for it. :|
20:22 not yet anyways
20:22 slackfriarzen <friarzen> Well, having used it more and more, I find that complex input is possible on phones, but not if the players get all pissed off if finicky punctuation is wrong, etc.
20:22 Volund MUDs are a niche gaming platform that really only appeals to people who are really eccentric
20:22 Griatch Volund: Well, the PRs are commented and ready for next round of revisions.
20:23 rnmissionrun Yeah it is possible I suppose but I shudder to think about attempting serious RP on my iPhone XR's keyboard.
20:23 Volund Griatch: I'll get to them probably tonight. :)
20:23 Griatch: I really am sorry if I'm sounding like an ass. I just... -really- want something to show for these years of work. and it's so close, I can taste it. I finally have the design in my head and I'm hammering it out and at every step IT WORKS
20:24 rnmissionrun I would not even attempt it. I might use a mobile client to "check in" and do thingc like check +jobs, @mail and the bbsystem. Maybe casual conversation. But that's it.
20:24 Volund plus something I have something that WORKS
20:24 Griatch Np, just glad some of that energy also goes towards extensions of Evennia itself :)
20:24 Volund then -you- can look at it.
20:24 And go 'okay this is cool, I like this idea, that idea, etc'
20:25 oh it will
20:25 I'm going to obviously be prioritizing stuff that's immediately useful to my purposes though. Like the signals. I'm obviously not the only person who benefits from that though! Which is great
20:26 slackfriarzen <friarzen> Give voice input a is surprisingly workable, if you happen to be somewhere you can use it without embarrassment.
20:26 Volund voice input is impressive
20:26 if you can use it piecemeal
20:26 like type in your channel command and then speak what you want to say.
20:27 slackfriarzen <friarzen> yep, but again, I haven't see any of the clients that got written/ported to phones support it.
20:27 <friarzen> and that is why I added the hot button plugin to the webclient.
20:29 <friarzen> I've looked into what it will take to add google voice input api's  to the webclient, but isn't simple.
20:30 rnmissionrun A lot of people won't use voice though. I ran into that on my old MOO
20:30 Volund one thing that I think might be good to add to Evennia
20:31 rnmissionrun Huh. I thought for sure that Mudrammer supported MXP but I guess it doesn't
20:33 Volund right now you have to go through the SESSION HANDLER in order to get things such as the list of accounts currently online, or what characters are currently being puppeted. It just seems wrong to me, to have to iterate over SESSIONHANDLER again and again to retrieve this every time it's needed. it would probably be smarter to just have a set() somewhere that can immediately tell you; one that's updated on the fly as things change.
20:33 someone disconnects fully? remove them from the set. someone logs in? add them to the set.
20:36 I'm not sure if that's 'a dumb thing' though
20:36 the good thing is that using SIGNALS now means that such things can be tracked in one place, easily
20:38 that really is the beautiful thing about signals
20:38 they can send out ANY kind of information, any ANYTHING can listen to them
20:38 you don't have to call the code directly, just send the signal and an arbitrary amount of things can happen
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21:12 evenniacode [issue comment] glyph commented on issue #1481 (Task: Explore Evennia to Python3 conversion) in evennia: Should this issue be closed?  All the CI appears to be on Py[11 more] ([…]comment-484263553)
21:13 glyph joined #evennia
21:13 glyph Is anyone working on Evennia coming to PyCon this year?
21:14 Volund where is PyCon?
21:14 Cleveland...
21:14 that's... hm
21:14 Griatch glyph: I did talk about Evennia at PyCon Sweden last fall.
21:14 rnmissionrun Does this seem reasonable, or should I use square brackets?   @msg/go out={actor} goes through {}.
21:14 Griatch But won't come to the US for it
21:15 glyph: Talking at PyCon yourself maybe?
21:27 glyph Griatch: Just going to be present there :). We usually try to have a Twisted user-group meeting at PyCon and I wanted to extend an invitation to Evennia this year explicitly, since I don't know if we've ever had a member of the project directly
21:28 y'all're a headline user, but ever so quiet :)
21:29 Griatch Thanks for the invitation - maybe someone actually located in the US could go? As said, I'm in Sweden myself
21:29 Volund rrrrrooooooawrgh I am so hype
21:29 I would like to but I'm broke. if someone wants to fund the trip I can go
21:29 not really sure what I'd do down there though
21:29 Griatch glyph here is the creator/lead dev of Twisted
21:30 Volund WHOAH really? awesome.
21:31 Griatch glyph: We are pretty visible in the MUD world, but it's pretty niche after all, so probably not so visible to the Python world at large :)
21:31 But I'd say we are likely the most popular Python mu* base around.
21:32 rnmissionrun Surely the only one, at this point?
21:33 Not sure who else is left
21:34 glyph Volund: hi!
21:34 Griatch Unclear if any are actively developed. The chinese Muddery is based on Evennia so ...
21:35 glyph: How does the Twisted user-group meeting work? You have presentations of different projects or just meet and talk together?
21:36 glyph Volund: So, it's too late to apply for this year, but if you really want to go, you should be aware that financial aid is available from the PSF if you need it:
21:36 Volund: Check in when registration for 2020 opens.
21:37 Griatch As said, I held a full-length talk on Evennia at PyCon Sweden; I was suprised at how well received it was; people have a lot of good memories of MUDs as it turns out.
21:38 glyph Griatch: Haha, I *wish* it were that organized :).
21:38 Volund ooooh, thanks glyph
21:39 glyph Griatch: Mainly it's just an opportunity to get together and discuss whatever comes to mind, we usually put aside about an hour for it and it's pretty free-form.
21:39 Volund: The conference itself is incredibly cheap but of course travel / hotel can set you back quite a bit especially on such short notice :).
21:39 Griatch: Does anyone from Evennia subscribe to the Twisted discussion list?
21:39 Griatch Cool. Yeah I'd be happy to join but there's an ocean to cross ;)
21:40 rnmissionrun Bah. It's a $400 flight :)
21:41 Griatch Not sure. We tend to lag behind a little in Twisted version requirement - Twisted has been so stable for us it's quite rare for us to really *have* to upgrade.
21:41 DiscordBot <Thenomain> Wow, Pycon is a stone's throw from here.
21:41 rnmissionrun Darn. Now that I have googled air fare from sweden to the US I will be seeing nothing but ads for air travel
21:41 glyph Griatch: There's a middling serious security issue in the latest release, so upgrading to the current one is probably a good idea :)
21:42 Griatch Yeah, we'll have the latest versions both of Twisted and Django in next Evennia version; since we are finally moving to Python3 we update all the other requirements too.
21:42 glyph I am mentioning it because we have recently had some discussions of big architectural changes that could potentially impact a lot of projects
21:43 and it's a lot easier to get involved in those discussions to give your project's needs *before* they've happened then try to wind things back :)
21:43 (As it happens the biggest one, "drop python 2", it seems like you're already ready for)
21:43 rnmissionrun Cleveland is an 8 hour drive for me, which would probably still be preferable to dealing with the TSA
21:44 Griatch Aha, thanks for the heads up! Yes, once Twisted's conch (I think that's where telnet etc resides if I'm not mis-remembering) was updated to handle py3, it was mostly a matter of getting all our ducks in a row and move over too.
21:44 glyph Griatch: yep, that's conch
21:45 anyway the mailing list is not super high volume, and it's the official channel for "we might break stuff" notifications
21:45 rnmissionrun: have I just talked you into attending PyCon to represent evennia to the python community
21:45 DiscordBot <Thenomain> 2 hour drive for me. Well, considering the amount of traffic and construction, I should expect 3.
21:45 rnmissionrun lol no
21:46 My only involvement with Python is through Evennia, strictly as a hobbyist looking to use a modern MU* architecture. I'm not a professional programmer or anything like that.
21:47 Volund flying there isn't actually hard for me if I have time in advance
21:47 my dad works in airlines; I can fly standby anywhere in the USA
21:47 Griatch glyph: Sounds useful; I'll sign up for the mailing list then.
21:47 Volund the problem is uh
21:47 rnmissionrun I had not touched Python before discovering Evennia. I have to say, it's a good way to learn
21:47 Volund lodging and transportation and food
21:47 I have never actually used this
21:48 maybe I should
21:48 glyph Griatch: Thanks! I hope you find it useful.
21:49 Volund: the conference will supply a fair amount of food, although you probably want like, dinner
21:49 sadly the lodging discounts are probably all but gone; you can't book through the website any more, but maybe the housing committee could hook you up
21:50 DiscordBot <Thenomain> I'd just drive back home.
21:50 glyph if you email them
21:50 Volund: I don't want to encourage you to do anything irresponsible but it is a truly amazing conference if it sounds like it might be appealing and you haven't done anything like that before.
21:52 Griatch It's great fun I'm sure :)
21:53 Subscribed to the ML now
21:53 rnmissionrun I'd check AirBnB
21:55 slackfriarzen <friarzen> Hrmm 7hr drive for me...
21:56 rnmissionrun Yikes. 7 hours pretty much demands it be an overnighter
21:57 Volund :D I'll see what I can do for 2020
21:57 currently working on this BBS code for Athanor
21:57 I've just gotta rewrite the commands and it will be working. wooooo
21:58 I remember how in Multiverse crisis MUSH's early days..
21:58 some jokester admin wrote a command that would respond to +bread
21:58 this was simply to embarass people who mis-typed +bbread
21:58 ... the command would send a room-emit to their location, depicting the offender getting buried in a mountain of bread loaves of all sorts
21:59 it was demanded I remove the command (I didn't make it) and I still saved it somewhere because that was hilarious
22:00 DiscordBot <Thenomain> So we seem to be on schedule for Cyberpunk 2020, minus the cyberware.
22:00 rnmissionrun A new version?
22:00 glyph Volund: you should sell the movie rights. do a gritty, cyberpunk reboot.  "DEATH ON BREAD MOUNTAIN. Coming to cinemas spring 2020"
22:01 ... if I open a bakery that's what I will call it
22:01 * Volund silly
22:01 Griatch glyph: While you are here; we use an AMP connection to communicate between our two processes (this means you can reload the Python code of the server without people disconnecting). I have made some testing with the AMP connection (just running locally), checking timings before and after, and finds that the transfer across the AMP seems to be surprisingly slow. I'd thought that when both receiver/sender
22:01 is on ...
22:01 ... localhost it would not be much network latency involved ...
22:01 DiscordBot <Thenomain> Wait, a game didn't want easter-egg commands? Sad.
22:02 glyph Griatch: are you using PyPy?
22:02 Griatch It could be something weird with how I've set things up, but I've not been able to find much data on AMP performance online.
22:02 DiscordBot <Thenomain> And it was Multiverse Crisis, a game based on a silly concept? Sad!
22:02 Volund Thenomain: the problem is that dark admins would occasionally mis-type too so
22:02 Griatch glyph: No, people have a hard enough time to install Evennia as it is without us requiring pypy too :)
22:02 DiscordBot <Thenomain> So maybe they shouldn't be dark in public!
22:02 rnmissionrun It's not that hard!
22:03 DiscordBot <Thenomain> (I still can't remember how to re-start Evennia.)
22:03 Volund well
22:03 glyph Griatch: "it's slow to call functions in cpython" might be the reason, but that's the only generalized perf issue I'm aware of.  you should raise it on the new mailing list you're a member of!  perhaps you could get some other AMP maintainers excited about optimizations.
22:03 Volund that depends on your target audience
22:04 Griatch glyph: I might; should redo these tests now after the py3 move to make sure :)
22:06 glyph Griatch: I wish I could more immediately give you an answer but it depends way too heavily on what the application is doing for me to have any ideas without having code and a test case and thinking real hard for a few hours.
22:08 Griatch That's fine :) We do things like gzip and pickling of the data which of course has an effect, but I recall that when I injected timers at different parts of the path, the delay was actually on the 'wire' rather than in all the processing of the data on either side. Ah well, just thought I'd ask if it was something that immediately came to mind. I'll run more tests.
22:09 glyph Griatch: you might try building a pipe-based and socket-based transport and comparing the performance of the two.  Also, might show you a pretty picture of where python is really spending its time
22:10 Griatch Hm, haven't tried vmprof; thanks
22:11 So many cool softwares around ...!
22:17 glyph: Alas I need to head to bed. If someone from the Evennia community does head to PyCon, we'll make sure they come and say hi in the Twisted meet ;)
22:19 Volund my goal: have the BBS working before the weekend. then get Jobs working
22:20 then I'll finalize Factions and Zones
22:20 (no way I can do ALL of that beore the weekend)
22:20 I'm gonna need a fair slew of tools ready before phase 1

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