All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:22 DarkSir23 Very diplomatic, Griatch
03:02 evenniacode [fork] thedarknet forked evennia https://github.com/thedarknet/evennia
04:08 [forum] Griatch Art posted 'Evscaperoom - an escaperoom in Evennia' https://groups.google.com/d/ms[…]ZpXA/xPkCGPRzAgAJ
04:08 Reason joined #evennia
04:09 Reason Picking up Evennia after a long time away -- refresh my memory, when setting @descs:  How to return carrier / tab?  \n \r %r %n etc., etc don't seem to do the trick.  :)
04:22 evenniacode joined #evennia
04:22 Griatch Reason: |/ is the one
04:54 DarkSir23: Diplomatic? Where?
04:57 evenniacode joined #evennia
07:49 vincent-lg joined #evennia
07:49 vincent-lg hi Evennia!
07:50 so Griatch, how did things to gor the game jam? I only have the smallest idea what it was, to be fair
08:04 Griatch vincent-lg: http://experimental.evennia.com
08:04 Check it out!
08:40 (if you try, please consider rating this and other games here: https://itch.io/jam/enterthemud2/rate/422945)
09:15 vincent-lg woo, sounds fun!
09:15 I don't have that much time right now but I'll check it out, if the game stays open for awhile. Perhaps this afternoon, early afternoon, depending on the weather
09:18 this sounds great Griatch, I'll test it whenever I can
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09:31 DiscordBot <Chason> this game is reminding me how terrible I am at escape rooms in real life
09:43 Griatch Chason: Haha, but you can always have a pie!
09:43 DiscordBot <Chason> I've already had two slices and it is very bitter :p
09:45 Griatch Hang in there!
10:54 vincent-lg1 I'm trying to see if raise should be used in a try/except clause. I mean, on the same level
10:55 no reason why not, but I'm more interested by the philosophy. Using assert for testing input is wrong on a philosophical standpoint it seems, for instance
12:01 Griatch vincent-lg1: I use raise when I want to log something or do something with the error but still want it to raise to a real error.
12:02 Also good if you have some custom error handler but you want to faster see bugs while you are developing (without having to go to the log or something)
12:05 DarkSir23 Ok, I'm digging this:  https://underdog.servepics.com:8443/zzgh3ejg.png
12:07 vincent-lg1 Griatch: this is my use case3
12:07 https://hastebin.com/pogatavace.py
12:08 DarkSir23 And since you reroll 10s: https://underdog.servepics.com:8443/1f4tu5xs.png
12:08 vincent-lg1 (I already asked actually, but it still seems a bit weird to me which is a bit more used to checking with conditions. Though I think that's correct Python, not in syntax, but in philosophy, what do you think?)
12:12 evenniacode [fork] EvripidisPa forked evennia https://github.com/EvripidisPa/evennia
12:12 vincent-lg good!
12:13 DarkSir23 Honestly, I think it's elegant.  I've always felt that using try/catch is a good way to circumvent or deal with problems,  as you choose.  You're just funneling those problems the way you want/need to.
12:14 vincent-lg DarkSir23: I believe so too. But it seems odd. Well, in any case, tye try/except block is there to check user input in any way, so perhaps this code is not so wrong. I tend to make tye try clause as brief as possible, only one line if I can help it, but I believe what I posted not to be wrong in principle
12:17 Griatch vincent-lg: It really depends on where the user are in this. I don't that if the user (as in the player) can freely input user_input, that they should get a ValueError if they input -1. If however the 'user' of this code is a developer using it in a library capacity, then raising an exceptions is good.
12:18 Overall the player should never see a traceback from their input IMO
12:18 DarkSir23 One more to share:  https://underdog.servepics.com:8443/spex9wzr.png
12:19 Griatch What are we looking at, DarkSir23 ?
12:19 Custom dice roller?
12:20 DarkSir23 WoD uses a d10 system that gives you a dice pool based on a combination of your stats, with modifiers, and a target difficulty.  You roll X dice, and count successes, rerolling 10s for possible extra successes.
12:21 vincent-lg Griatch: yeah, but since the except block captures ValueError (whether from mis-converting user_input or because user_input is egative / nul) the error message is displayed in any case. But I agree, it all depends :D
12:21 DarkSir23 I started with contrib.dice and used the roll_dice function to handle the actual dice rolling, and wrote a parser to turn a text string like the what's at the bottom of that last image into an actual count of dice.
12:21 Griatch DarkSir23: Aha, nice!
12:22 DarkSir23 Sorry, just proud of it :)
12:23 Griatch vincent-lg: Ah, you are right, didn't think of that. Yeah, it looks a little weird when written compact like this, but I think it's the right thing to do (compared to e.g. putting `print` in two places)
12:23 DarkSir23 It'll fail if it doesn't understand any part of the string, but it's fairly verbose about why it failed, so they can correct the command.
12:23 Griatch DarkSir23: It does look nice. :) I vaguely remember how WoD dice pools works; I played Vampire a long, long time ago; but never game mastered it.
12:25 vincent-lg Griatch: I think the same. It does feel a bit  weird at first glance but it groups and avoid duplication which is good. I would do a try/except/else and in the else, put a if year <= 0:... but that's actually repetitive here. Okay, thanks for the feedback :) I wasn't sure and since I'm going to write about it in the book, I would feel a bit stupid if everyone came to me saying it's not the way to do it at all
12:26 Griatch I'm  sure it's a bit up to preference too. But I at least thing this looks like it makes sense.
12:28 vincent-lg I'll quote you on this :P . Well...
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14:50 Griatch So far 20 people have tried the evscaperoom. But I only think 2 or three have taken the time to complete it yet. As usual with text-games (it seems) most log in, looks around and then logs out, unfortunately).
14:53 DarkSir23 How long is the voting period?
14:53 Griatch 15 days I think
14:53 An entry must get at least 10 votes to be in the race
15:09 DarkSir23 I will try to bring myself to vote for the others, later today.
15:09 I don't feel like either of the ones I've tried were games.
15:27 Griatch Still worth of a comment :) There is a rogue-like game too now though
15:27 It's a fiddly to get going (see my comments in the thread), but it's just a single python3 file :)
15:28 DarkSir23 yeah, that one looked most interesting of the three.
15:35 vincent-lg okay time to test evscape
15:38 DarkSir23 Woot!
15:40 vincent-lg hu, shouldn't have selected this username...
15:41 Griatch Enjoy :)
15:44 vincent-lg I don't know if it's a good idea to join someone I don't know in an existing room. Might be better starting over to not bother anyone with my struglles. Plus, some people (like myself) like to "find" the solutions, not be "given" them :D
15:44 DarkSir23 I would create a new room, definitely.
15:45 slackfriarzen <friarzen> hmm...one thing I have noticed with the Evscape (which is kind of my first real use of EvMenu's).... there isn't an obvious way to quit out of Ex(amining) a thing.
15:45 DarkSir23 The help directs you to do it again.
15:45 Just "ex"
15:45 slackfriarzen <friarzen> It took me a bit of trial and error to figure out that I needed to just 'ex' to get out.
15:46 Griatch I also added an extra text to the top of each focus to tell you just that
15:46 slackfriarzen <friarzen> ahh, ok, cool.
15:46 Griatch Since I heard others having the same issue
15:46 DarkSir23 It was a little hard to find/get used to.
15:47 vincent-lg okay, logging in a new room. Sounds fun Griatch, exactly what I like to create in my own games (funny story, lots of details, lots of possible actions)
15:48 Griatch Yes, it's not a very common style; my argument is that I don't want an inventory system - then people could pick up some critical objcet and log off with it, making the room impossible to solve for others in the room.
15:49 vincent-lg: I tried to make it accessible. You can also check the `options`
15:49 vincent-lg frankly, so far, so good :D
15:49 don't worry, you'll hear me complain if something goes wrong. On the other hand I'm often less taken aback by visual details
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15:50 bostrt joined #evennia
15:51 Griatch True
15:52 But I was very careful to never relay any info by color alone :)
15:52 That `option` command actually implements an Armageddon-style first/third-person mini-language engine under the hood
15:54 So what I need to write in the text is "~You ~look at *lamp" and the system will show you "You look at [lamp]", whereas others in the room will see "Vincent looks at [lamp]". And how to decorate [lamp] is customized through the new options command.
16:02 vincent-lg ho it's nice
16:02 would be hard to do in other languages but it's still nice ;D
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16:08 Griatch Yes, that's a very nice feature of English
16:09 Even though you still have to have a mapping for 'irregular' verbs
16:11 vincent-lg definitely
16:11 in French it would allow for complex algorithm, determining verb groups (which is not trivial)
16:11 but anyway
16:16 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Is it generally necessary to edit anything outside whatever your "mygame" folder is once you innit? Is the idea to leave the evennia folder one pulls from git unmolested unless you want to develop evennia itself?
16:16 DarkSir23 Absolutely
16:17 (to the latter)
16:17 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Right so even for complex systems just leave evennia alone and only hook and overload and such?
16:17 DarkSir23 Yup
16:17 * vincent-lg shudders
16:18 vincent-lg leave the evennia folder alone
16:18 Griatch BP-Santo: Yes, you should never modify the evennia folder unless you are actively contributing to Evennia itself and plan to make a PR.
16:18 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> circles the evennia folder appraisingly
16:18 vincent-lg you won't find much that can't be changed for your mygame
16:18 though if you do I guess it's worth an issue
16:18 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Plan is, get together own git server, just have a repo for the game folder - that sounds good?
16:18 vincent-lg it should definitely not be the case
16:19 Griatch BP-Santo: Yes, that's the common way
16:19 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I'm an artist by training not a dev so a bit new to git and such
16:19 Griatch Cool, is your art available to view somewhere?
16:19 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Expanding my design doc for what I want to do and slowly setting up things here and there. Want to study all of the docs before I actually try and implement.
16:20 vincent-lg don't worry, people who have been developing for years modify the evennia folder. It's not a dev thing, anyone can make that mistake
16:20 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Oh no it's not, was in my school gallery years ago but I din't exhibit anything for years anyway
16:20 * vincent-lg looks innocently toward... toward no one
16:21 Griatch To be fair, I too modified evennia a little for the evscaperoom - but that was because I found some bugs :D
16:21 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Then was a bohemian musician and it was all underground stuff then time passed and now little is left from back then and I don't want to spread it around anyway ;p
16:21 Griatch Fair enough :)
16:21 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Want to implement systems in evennia to get my OOP thinking up to scratch but eventually want to do something commercial in unity
16:21 vincent-lg I have a strong belief game building should be done by artist (I mean, usually I recruit writers, but I guess that's the same mindset in any case). I don't think devs are so good at building (meaning no offense to anyone, we sure can and sure do)
16:22 Griatch Araquiwain 4 ever
16:22 Awesome title
16:22 DarkSir23 Seconded.    I'm an awful builder.
16:23 vincent-lg ;me ponders on this evscaperoom
16:23 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Once my unity project gets underway might actually have something nice to show - want to use my traditional photography skills to do a 2.5d kinda episodic game
16:23 vincent-lg oops
16:24 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I find devs focus on systems and automation and when things go wrong it's because of that.
16:24 Griatch A user picked that as a name; kinda neat
16:24 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> As in, rather than just use your minds eye to create a vision and then realise it in the simplest and direct of ways they want to organise it and make it be accessible and extensible etc.
16:24 vincent-lg BP-Santo: well, to be fair, I guess we both need each other in the building process
16:25 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Ya for sure - the pure artists I know that is not techy like me can't even get authoring software to work properly.
16:25 vincent-lg I've built for years without help. But once I received help from non-devs, I must admit the virtual world on which I worked really gained in depth and beauty. That being said... I'm not talking for all devs either, that was just my personal experience
16:26 Griatch I enjoy building; I just like coding a little more
16:26 vincent-lg same, Griatch
16:26 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I have to say I am excited about coding some systems, not sure how well it will go but hopes are high
16:27 vincent-lg but one aspect I truly like (and it might not always be the case, I guess) is to communicate with non-devs about building. Builders are (in my case) not developers and we sure as heck don't work in the same way. And once they ask for a feature it won't be structured like I would have, and if I implement it the way I want chances are they won't use it. So it's a lot of compromise and teaching, but I really like that part.
16:27 Smooth team-work makes for a happy and communicating team. And productive, if nothing else
16:29 and yet again I had a very good builder who had a strong programming background, yet was able to write a lot of great things. So the distinction might not be that strong after all
16:30 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Text games and coding seem very close together, I think it's a natural connection for coders to be creative by making muds.
16:30 <BP-Santo> I don't think any of the people who studied with me who are now doing really good would be able to build a good mud area.
16:31 Griatch Interestingly, for the evscaperoom I didn't do any building in the regular sense at all. It's all dynamically generated in code.
16:31 I never went into the game and entered as single @desc or @dig
16:31 vincent-lg Griatch: yeah, but you built in the code directly
16:31 Griatch Yes
16:31 vincent-lg so you did a builder's job in any case, no matter the method
16:32 I'm not too bad at creating puzzles, I'm completely stupid when I have to solve one. Makes any sense?
16:33 Griatch vincent-lg: There is always pie if you get stuck ;)
16:33 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I am not yet ready to implement but I wanted my rooms to be assembled from a standard fields depending on variables. So the @desc is put together from @desc.field1 @desc.field2 etc. and order, colouring. determined by a few keys. Not sure how difficult that will be.
16:34 <BP-Santo> So say somebool=true would mean the desc shown to the player would be fiedl1 + field2 + field4.
16:34 vincent-lg Griatch: don't tempt me :P
16:36 haha!
16:39 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I imagine I will have to modify the default room object to make this possible. This would be used for the player doing say "smell" returning the field smell for the room desc or if the player toggled on smell to show up it would always return that as part of the room desc.
16:39 slackfriarzen <friarzen> I'm told I'm a good builder/game-designer, but my biggest struggle is with worthwhile NPCs.
16:54 DarkSir23 Make sure you use True and not true, but also take a look at evennia/contrib/extended_room.py -- That may do a lot of what you want to do.
17:10 vincent-lg Griatch: you really went out of your way to annoy the poor players :D
17:22 Griatch vincent-lg: Hehe, did you get some wet socks in your face mayhaps?
17:23 vincent-lg: Coming to think of it, I'm not sure how easy the map is to parse ...
17:23 vincent-lg wet socks? possibly
17:25 I'm used to ASCII maps but... well, I guess anyone else has the same difficulty here
17:27 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Thanks, ill check the contrib directory further down the line - I take it it's all the extra goodies people came up with over the years?
17:29 vincent-lg ho, I got it, the symbols are given
17:29 Griatch BP-Santo: Yes, those are optional stuff
17:30 vincent-lg: I think you lose the road. I'll see if I can come up with something else
17:31 vincent-lg Griatch: if it's important to the mystery, sure. Guess the fact that it's important or not important is a giveaway in itself :D . Anyway I figured the map out now
17:33 Griatch vincent-lg: Well, it should at least look the same in screenreader mode as otherwise. Check now and it should be the same
17:34 vincent-lg hu, the server restarted but no message was given that it was restarting, it might be a bug, can't check. Don't know if you can "crash" the server and it has to start
17:34 thanks
17:34 Griatch I think the first restart message is not showing when you restart from the terminal.
17:35 vincent-lg yeah you're right
17:35 I was asking because I saw a weird thing last time but didn't check the logs. Anyway. Yeah the map looks the same, thanks
17:47 Griatch It's practical with an online game that one can hot-patch things without anyone needing to download things anew.
17:48 I'm mainly fixing typos and minor things now though.
18:01 Interesting. A guy in reddit suggested that requiring username/password was a 'HUGE' hurdle for getting people to try the game.
18:05 vincent-lg huhu, that's true enough... but how would you do otherwise?
18:06 I hate passwords but then, I prefer passwords to biometrics :D
18:06 Griatch I guess I could allow guests.
18:06 slackfriarzen <friarzen> heh, from what I've seen, the reddit crowd seems to consist of old-timers that believe username/passwords/encryption are huge barriers to entry but somehow compiling/writing a telnet client from scratch is something everyone wants to do.
18:07 Griatch I don't really understand the username/password issue. Is it so hard to make up a name and a throwaway password if you just want to try something out?
18:08 vincent-lg honestly no
18:09 though to be fair I actually created a password because I don't really "trust" in that encryption system. And then I don't remember it. Big deal :D
18:09 I guess you could create a guess account, but then if you want to log back in after some time, well, there's no way to do that... I guess
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18:56 DiscordBot <kosmobot> They are effectively creating a guest account. There's no email or registration required. Maybe just a simple note stating the purpose of the username/password in the context of the game would help. It's so much easier than actually registering an account with username/email/password. People must really want to protect their pie.
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19:08 Griatch Fine, fine :) I have activated guest accounts on the game. It's not like it's hard to do with Evennia after all. Check it out :)
19:08 You'll even get a more sensible villager name than "Guest1" etc
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19:24 vincent-lg haha, good
19:26 no, I don't want to let her win, but I don't want to miss bedtime :P
19:26 but don't worry, I'll comeback with backups tomrrow
19:27 Griatch Haha
19:39 expired00 joined #evennia
19:49 vincent-lg time to go! See you tomorrow Evennia!
19:50 Griatch Good night!
20:11 It's fun that people seem to enjoy collaborating on solving the room too :D
21:26 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Ok so lets say I have an empty project repository on gitlab. Do I just cd into mymud and do git remote add origin git@gitlab.com:myusername/mymud.git then add and comit and push or should I git init before that? Read something on the evennia wiki that one should not do the init so not sure what to do.
21:28 Griatch BP-Santo: The easiest way I find to start a new repo like that is to first create it in the online service (github, gitlab etc), and then clone that repo down to your local drive. Then you copy all stuff you want into that folder and use `git add *` inside it to add it all to git. Commit and push it all back up again.
21:28 No need for any sophisticated remote git commands or anything
21:29 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Yeah I am confused by this a bit, the .git directory is the repository on the server right?
21:30 <BP-Santo> So locally when I pull or push, there is no .git, just the directory of my choosing and I just connect to the correct url to pull or push or commit ya?
21:30 Griatch No, .git is just all the metadata git needs to track your files.
21:31 It will exist both locally and on the remote repo - in fact the local and remote repo are identical, just sitting in different places.
21:31 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> so it's a file with metadata not a directory?
21:31 <BP-Santo> And there is one per top level directory for a given repo?
21:32 Griatch .git is a directory of a lot of files that you should generally never need to look at or care about. :)
21:32 There is only one .git for your entire repo.
21:32 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> so it's a hidden directory sitting in the top level directory for the repo?
21:33 <BP-Santo> the gitignore file evennia comes with though sits outside that folder right?
21:33 Griatch Yes, on both accounts
21:33 You do have control over .gitignore if you want to change that (but usually you should probably not)
21:34 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> any reason to put .gitignore into .git?
21:34 <BP-Santo> or is it standard practice to have it outside?
21:38 evenniacode [fork] sg forked evennia https://github.com/sg/evennia
21:38 Griatch You never put anything into .git manually
21:38 Treat it as if it's not there (there are some exceptions, but don't worry about that for learning)
21:39 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> so .gitignore is something git looks for when run from a given directory and it's all standard practice?
21:47 Griatch Yes, .gitignore allows you to tell git "don't include this in version control"
21:54 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Hmm... if my directory contains a mymud directory and my repo is also named mymud and I clone it, will it overwrite my local mymud directory? Wanted to do it the way you advised but my files are on a google cloud instance ... bah will just tar it, download, git that sucka then rm the stuff on the server and clone and then it should be setup I think.
21:55 <BP-Santo> Or actually, maybe clone it somewhere else, move, push then rm the clone and reclone in the correct directory?
21:55 Griatch You can just rename your local mygame temporarily ?
21:56 Once you copy everything from it you won't need that anymore
21:56 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> yeah just my unix foo is not up to scratch, not sure how to move just contents of directory properly haha
21:57 <BP-Santo> google comes to the rescue
21:59 <BP-Santo> ok cp -r folder1/* folder2 it is then
22:00 Griatch Yep!
22:02 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Repurposed a laptop into a debian desktop just to practice with the gui stuff and it was a nightmare, the server stuff is much nicer.
22:08 Griatch I tend to do most work from the terminal myself; although I use a desktop GUI too of course for some things
22:10 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I'm all about that OS X, there are good things out there but OS X is safe haven.
22:11 Griatch Never used mac, but going to a BSD core was probably the best choice they ever did.
22:12 Made it a lot more usable for unix folks
22:12 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> It peaked with Snow Leopard and thats when I know it was the OS to get old with... since then they sort of improved it but user facing features did not really improve much, just endless reiterations and moving it closer to IoS
22:15 <BP-Santo> I use macs for work exclusively, cuts down on total cost of operation a lot - I've spent as much time troubleshooting that debian laptop last few days as I did all the macs I work with over the last few years combined.
22:15 Griatch Ha, what brand of laptop is it?
22:16 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Dell Vostro - nabbed it from the office since was unused
22:16 Griatch At work we are about 50-50 Macs and Linux Thinkpads
22:16 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Yeah Lenovo is good stuff I hear
22:16 Griatch All server/backend folks use Linux, the frontend folks and management uses Mac
22:18 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I used unetbootin and that messed me up, it dint load the nonfree stuff, dint recognise my hand found firmware files etc. Then I tried to install nvidia drivers and all went to hell. Tried fixing it and autoremoved some stuff by mistake then realised I my wifi setup no longer worked and could not get any packages anymore. Long story short I magically found some dvd's while looking for an ethernet cable, burnt the debian dvd, reinstalled
22:18 and it worked much better this time around - din't try nvidia drivers again though.
22:19 <BP-Santo> Yeah that to me sounds like the best combo, mac for workstation, client facing stuff, artsy stuff; nice distro for server side. I tried windows recently again and it was an unstable mess.
22:19 Griatch I find that just using something like Linux Mint alleviates all hardware problems. I used Debian for years, but I feel I don't have the time to spend in config files anymore.
22:20 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I just picked debian for the server stuff so thought it would be wise to stick to it for the little laptop so I get better at the gui side.
22:20 Griatch Debian is the base of Ubuntu, which in turn is the base for Mint.
22:21 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Whoever managed the Debian webpage though is... well bless their heart but there are issues.
22:22 <BP-Santo> Challenge is not how to do things I find but knowing that things need to be done. Like fixing screen tearing or power management. So much time would be saved if there was only mention what a typical user should do. I wanted to enable vsync and it took me hours to figure out I need a window compositor for that functionality.
22:24 Griatch It's a deep rabbit hole. The difference is that you *can* make such changes yourself if you want to. Mac (and definitely Windows) shuts such things down. Often they pick sane defaults that 'just works' but when there are issues you are usually locked out or heavily restricted in what you can yourself fix.
22:26 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> On the mac though you can really do a lot of things, it's just hidden away but accessible, at least the stuff I usually want to do.
22:26 Griatch But these days there are so big players involved in Linux development. It's actually really surprising how many of the latest games are available on Linux, for example.
22:27 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> Best thing about linux is the subtle sense of hacking the gibson when you actually fix something ;3
22:28 <BP-Santo> Who needs games when you can play the quest of trying to figure out why symlinks to same thing disappear across directories when you hide them in just a single one.
22:34 Griatch Haha, sounds like you are really exploring the wonders of the OS :) Anyway, I have to head to bed. I saw two groups of people give up in the evscaperoom logs (over at experimental.evennia.com) tonight. People seem very reluctant to eat that pie!
22:36 DiscordBot <BP-Santo> I might try and log on and check it out once I set all of this gubbins up. Have a good rest!
23:56 <petriomelony> hey Griatch!  just finished your gamejam game, it was great
23:56 pinkmagicdev joined #evennia
23:56 DiscordBot <petriomelony> though i am sad i lost points for eating pie on the way out, haha

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