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00:36 evenniacode [forum] alephate created 'Fetching & Rebuilding' in General Discussion (<[…]/discussions/2377>)
00:37 DiscordBot <alephate> @Fari I put a short guide into the discussions you can look at
00:37 <Farî> sweet
00:37 <alephate> fstrings, I mean, not docstrings
00:45 <Kovitikus> @Relics Please don't delete your message history. It is already being logged via the IRC bot. Deleting it only serves to confuse anybody reading it in Discord later on.
01:15 <Kovitikus> Nevermind, I think I confused myself lol. The conversation appeared as if Fari was quoting messages that didn't exist, but on second glance it had only appeared confusing.
02:33 <Kovitikus> I'm so glad to see many new and active people hopping into the community. Everybody helping each other out really goes a long way.
03:36 <Relics> Aye thanks Kovitikus, glad to be around. This is my first python development experience so
03:37 <leonn3k> I only joined recently, anytime i get into anything (in this case MUDs) i start to want to make stuff for it so naturally evennia is a good fit
03:44 <Relics> Would someone be so willing as to give my a very simple example of making say a create box/ create room command that accesses and stores to the db? I'm really over thinking all this. I've read a good amount of the evennia doc. And I'm a little overwhelmed with it's wholeness in feature and defaultObjects
03:44 <Farî> use @dig to create a room
03:45 <Relics> I want to make multiple rooms quickly. So I just want to specify a common enter and exit make a 10 square hallway say. But I don't want to @dig east 10 times in game :/
03:46 <Relics> You can't use @dig in the python objects folder can you?
03:46 <Farî> nope
03:46 <Farî> but you can look at the @dig command code and see how it works
03:46 <Farî> and then make your own
03:46 <Relics> In the evennia folder?
03:46 <Farî> yep
03:46 <Relics> You rule. Just needed an arrow
04:02 <Relics> Dumb question. Can I put the entire game folder on git? or is git just for files I need to add??
04:02 <Farî> You can put your project folder on git, yes
04:02 <Relics> thanks
04:08 <Kovitikus> You look in Evennia to see how the command is made, but you make your own in your project folder. Never, ever edit anything in the Evennia folder unless you are submitting a PR for contribution to the engine itself.
04:09 <Kovitikus> Also, you'll find Evennia to be a great tool for learning Python. I have no programming or development experience prior to Evennia save for some dabbling in beginner stuff sparsely over the years. Evennia was exactly what I needed to learn coding.
04:12 <Kovitikus> @Relics I wouldn't exactly call my InstanceHandler simple, but it's quite frankly as simple as it can get while still functioning. You can see here how I chain the creation of multiple rooms and exits, at least.[…]
04:13 <Kovitikus> The room generation was fairly straight-forward. It wasn't until I got to the exit generation that I started to have to manage variables across iterations of my for loop.
04:14 <Kovitikus> Hopefully I documented it enough to make it comprehensible.
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04:18 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> There is also[…]de-Processor.html, which is generally going to be the same code as what I made, only in a slightly different format and usage.
04:40 <Relics> You. Are a real pal. I will look all this over. I just established my first git project so. gitbashing right now, but really. Thank you for the resource
05:14 <Hattiehats> I was literally just thinking about my game again Kovitikus and that actually solves a problem I’d listed as a TODO. I will lovingly scav from your work LOL
05:17 <Kovitikus> Fantastic! That's what it's there for!
05:17 <daiimus> I've been fighting with Grapevine. Everytime I run @grapevine2chan gw = gossip I get the "Set GRAPEVINE_ENABLED=True in settings to enable." response but I've already done this in my game folder\ and even tried changing the under evennia after following the documentation online.
05:19 <Kovitikus> Definitely do not change the default settings. If it doesn't function in your project's server settings, the default settings won't change that outcome.
05:22 <daiimus> Aha. I made a silly mistake. Was modifying my local directory instead of hosted vm.
05:31 <Kovitikus> @Hattiehats  You can join my project's Discord if you have any questions about my systems. It is open to the public for discussion. My GitHub activity gets posted there as well.
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10:57 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Is it wise to avoid all custom typeclasses? This is something I struggle with. Perhaps my experience of restructuring my project has left me with an aversion to hardcoded typeclasses that is irrational? Sure, I broke a lot of stuff that I then needed to go back and fix in my code, as well as basically destroy and recreate my game (had nothing of value). But, there are ways to fix the typeclasses of already existing objects if something
10:57 changes down the line, even if it isn't optimal.
10:59 <Kovitikus> Take for example my Merchant typeclass. This is important in regards to having access to a custom handler and also the ability to hold stock. It's not the type of thing I'd want on a normal Character typeclass, which would quickly end up bloated if I accounted for every character type inside one typeclass.
11:01 <Kovitikus> These are also things that aren't so easily determined by a simple tag that makes a character object a merchant. When I generate the object, perhaps I can pass in a merchant tag and put an if statement inside of my at_object_creation to check for that tag before adding the stock attribute, but that seems like a very unclean approach. Again, as these additional character types expand, my main Character typeclass is going to become very
11:01 bloated and difficult to navigate or understand what is happening. Especially if I'm piling in a ton of conditionals upon the object's creation or other methods.
11:13 evdemo [Public] HDBB just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
11:14 [Public] HDBB disconnected from the Evennia demo.
11:34 DiscordBot <Lysaer> I think you've pretty much described the decision process. It's a fine balance. How much do you do with attributes vs how much you do with typeclasses. I try to only use typeclasses where there's a huge functional difference on the objects. If not, I lean towards attributes.
11:35 <Lysaer> Even handlers can behave differently, as in... either an object has a handler attached or it does not. If it does, great. Also don't forget you can use multiple inheritance in python too so the object could be a Character AND a Merchant.
11:36 <Lysaer> And then duck type... try: obj.merch() catch AttributeError or whatever.
11:44 <Kovitikus> How is that different than Merchant being a child of Character?
11:46 <Kovitikus> @Lysaer Are you a werewolf in RL? You've done a very poor job of concealing your true identity. Your name, Lysaer, reminds me greatly of lycanthropy. And also the other day you were talking about werewolves in your game.
11:46 <Kovitikus> All signs point to you being a beast of the night.
12:14 <Lysaer>
12:15 <Kovitikus> Hehe, I love mage types. They always seem to get the most love in any game that features magic alongside melee combat.
12:16 <Kovitikus> Is that werewolf form some sort of hidden powerful magic that players rarely acquire?
12:16 <Kovitikus> I think werewolf and vampire could be two very rare afflictions that grant great power. It'd be special, like being a jedi or sith.
12:19 <Lysaer> There was always the concept of shape forms, rather than races. So everyone is human but has the potential to take on another form later on in game. I love that. It really irks me more than what I want my name to be when I first start out.
12:20 <Lysaer> Ugh phone messed up the words there.
12:21 <Lysaer> Werewolf was one of those. You could also be a bat (blind, low health but could fly and bite etc)
12:22 <Lysaer> And then some forms could be really odd. Like a floating head or something.
12:40 <Lysaer> Oh, and it's different because Merchant doesn't have to be a subclass of Character. You could have an interface of 'Interactable' and Merchant could be one of those. Then have a command that could interact with an Interactable character.
12:40 <Lysaer> You CAN do it with a single inheritance tree just fine but it can get ugly (so can multiple inheritance...)
12:41 <Lysaer> Like with everything code... there's more than one way to do it.
12:43 <Lysaer> I tend to try and avoid deep inheritance trees, it just super hard jumping up and down the to find code and much prefer having classes that encapsulate one thing, then find ways of tying them together (composition over inheritance, etc)
12:45 <Lysaer> But uh, sometimes it's quicker to just extend. So I've some refactoring to do. One day.
13:16 <Kovitikus> You're my kind of thinker.
13:17 <Kovitikus> I hate games that overload me with choices at the very start.
13:17 <Kovitikus> Good games open up as you progress and learn the basics and master the general systems.
13:17 <Kovitikus> And THEN they give you additional options.
13:18 <Lysaer> Yep.. Maybe a profession where the dark arts slowly turn you into a vampire or something. Or a druid where you start sprouting leaves from your nose.
13:18 <Lysaer> and you take on more of attributes of the thing you become.
13:18 <Kovitikus> Something along the lines of my Sanity system.
13:19 <Kovitikus> I'm going to go out on a limb here, but sprouting leaves from your nose sounds like it would suck.
13:20 <Lysaer> haha well. That was more of a joke.
13:20 <Kovitikus> Regarding the typeclasses. From the start I tried to avoid dumping logic directly into a typeclass. That's why I decided to detach all of it into handlers that could be expanded or removed.
13:23 <Lysaer> Yeah. It's a good idea. Much easier to reuse those handlers in other places too.
13:26 <Kovitikus> Much easier to call my logic through the character object than to import it in every module as well.
13:32 evdemo [Public] demo just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
13:32 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Demo on the demo.
13:32 evdemo [Public] demo: yep :-)
13:33 [Public] demo: I remember playing a really neat MUD that let users script objects in a central server
13:33 [Public] demo: was trying to find out again, i found it ( but was curious what the state of MUDs are
13:34 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> I suppose the state of MUDs is who you ask.
13:34 evdemo [Public] demo: I wasn’t sure if this was the same style, or if the idea was to build your own servers, rather than something like.. second life but in text form
13:34 [Public] demo: this is true
13:34 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Some people are certain it's a dead genre, others are content with the way it is, many see the potential in its possibilities, then you have lunatics like us over here trying to develop our own.
13:35 evdemo [Public] demo: I think it’s a nice thing to have something in between IRC and stuff like SL tbh, even just for social reasons
13:35 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Evennia is a really flexible foundation you can build from, but it takes learning Python (wasn't difficult for me and plenty of other noob coders here as well).
13:35 <Kovitikus> What is SL?
13:36 evdemo [Public] demo: I know python and a few others, programming isn’t an issue, what I wasn’t sure on is, does the scripting happen by the users, or the server operators, was the only MUD I found that let users describe/script objects in a public space
13:36 [Public] demo: SL is second life, :P it’s an online social community thing-y
13:36 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Oh yeah, I know the name, was just not certain of the acronym.
13:37 <Kovitikus> As far as scripting, you can code the game to allow players to run in game scripts that you curate, which is something I plan on doing.
13:37 <Kovitikus> It's really as open as you want it to be, in terms of the power each player has to manipulate the world.
13:37 evdemo [Public] demo: that’s an interesting idea, this has it’s own scripting language called WITCH, which was limited but great for manipulating world state etc
13:37 [Public] demo: that’s pretty cool, do you have a repo or anything for that?
13:38 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> I  haven't actually designed any scripting, but my project name is Hecate, so therefore I'm on GitHub as
13:38 <Kovitikus> I've mostly been working on base systems so far.
13:38 evdemo [Public] demo: sounds cool! I’ll follow along :-)
13:38 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Generating instances, handling inventory, merchant stock, travelling between rooms.
13:39 <Kovitikus> If you want to get into Evennia you should hop into our chat community via either IRC or the Discord.
13:39 <Kovitikus> Both are linked on the main Evennia site.
13:39 <Kovitikus> We help each other out and answer questions as we are able.
13:39 evdemo [Public] demo: yeah, have you seen that other project i linked? You should try it, it’s very cool
13:39 [Public] demo: hehe, I tend to get absorbed into projects but i’ll try join sometime
13:40 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Ok, hope to see you around again.
13:40 evdemo [Public] demo: you too :-) seriously though you should check out that project, it’s dead, but still up and it’s super fun to make test objects, might give you some inspiration for yours :-)
13:41 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> Thanks for the recommendation.
13:41 evdemo [Public] demo: no problem, appreciate you chatting to me, it seems like an awesome framework, just not quite what i was hoping for (that someone else had the same idea and di call the work for me :P )
13:41 [Public] demo: I do like MUDs/MUSH’s though so I’ll be sure to check in every now and then, and I’ll follow on github
13:42 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> LOL yeah, I wouldn't be making my own project if someone else already made it.
13:42 <Kovitikus> It's not like any of us want to make the effort, beyond the enjoyment and challenge of learning of course.
13:42 <Kovitikus> Most of us are just fed up with what we've seen elsewhere, with either dead projects or problems with administration.
13:42 evdemo [Public] demo: Yeah :( I get that
13:43 [Public] demo: anyways, was fun chatting and was nice to meet you, I never forget names so if I hop in discord I’ll be sure to say hi o/
13:50 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> o7
13:50 evdemo [Public] demo disconnected from the Evennia demo.
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14:38 evdemo [Public] aoeu just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
14:43 [Public] aoeu disconnected from the Evennia demo.
15:02 DiscordBot <alephate> Just read the conversation about giving players choices in character generation
15:02 <alephate> I have a lot of choices in character generation...
15:03 <alephate> But I also have the option where you can randomize, and just answer a few questions like what archetype you want
15:03 <Kovitikus> There's this thing, I forget what it's called, but when there's too many choices it becomes too difficult to make a choice and sometimes people just walk away instead of continuing.
15:03 <alephate> decision fatigue?
15:04 <Kovitikus> Yeah. That's it.
15:04 <alephate> I'm thinking there will be 3 types of players who we want in the game
15:04 <Kovitikus> Well that fatigue one says it's after a long session of making choices.
15:05 <alephate> One kind will be (mostly my old friends from old games I used to play) the kind who likes to roleplay but mainly wants to check out the competitive combat options
15:05 <Kovitikus> Choice paralysis.
15:05 <alephate> And this kind can just auto-generate
15:05 <alephate> The other kind will be someone who mostly wants to roleplay but does not want to have to do a lot of meticulous research into all the options and choices
15:05 <Kovitikus>
15:06 <alephate> So there's a medium-customization chargen option that generates things for you and then lets you customzie those things if you really want to
15:06 <alephate> And then the last kind is the kind that wants to be in control of everything and will research and plan their concept for weeks before actually making a character
15:06 <alephate> And there is a totally free-form option for them
15:06 <Kovitikus> That's a good approach. Allow veterans or those who want to min/max everything to have that option.
15:07 <Kovitikus> I personally wouldn't enjoy it simply because if I know there are more choices that can be made, I feel obligated to understand it all.
15:07 <Kovitikus> I'd rather have the options taken away from me altogether and reintroduced to me later on in smaller chunks.
15:08 <Kovitikus> Even if it means spreading out my "chargen" over the course of the first 24 hours of playing the character.
15:08 <Kovitikus> The idea that a chargen is a one time menu navigation thing should really be dismissed. I'd like to see more creative options explored.
15:08 <alephate> Yeah, it's not meant to all be understood, like if you're from a backwater fishing village there's no way you'd know everything about the mercantile farmers to the far east, but it would be fun to meet one in-game just to play out the culture clash
15:11 <alephate> My free form chargen though is like an area that players can explore and interact with each other, but the rooms have a command set that lets you do chargen commands like checking the progress of your application and adding things to it
15:11 <alephate> It's not exactly a menu, but it's not a series of quests either
15:12 <Kovitikus> Better than a boring menu, for sure.
15:12 <alephate> IRE games start with a quest usually where you learn how to play and generate your character at the same time, it's really cool
15:12 <Kovitikus> IRE?
15:12 <alephate> Iron realms entertainment
15:13 <Kovitikus> Oh Iron Realms.
15:13 <Kovitikus> Yeah. Sorry, took a minute to catch up my brain database.
15:13 <alephate> Did you ever play them?
15:13 <Kovitikus> Every MUD I've tried always falls short of what I'm looking for and most are terrible at the intro and I end up quitting.
15:14 <alephate> You should try one, you might like it or at least get ideas from it
15:14 <Kovitikus> I tried Achaea. It was disappointing.
15:14 <alephate> Ah, okay
15:14 <Kovitikus> Especially since @Mysterin came around and told me how terrible the developers are.
15:14 <Kovitikus> GG, instant curiosity killer.
15:15 <alephate> haha
15:15 evdemo [Public] Tim just connected to the Evennia demo for the first time!
15:15 DiscordBot <Kovitikus> The thing is that I had issues with it before she ever said anything. I had a lot of complaints about the noob experience and she said that other people have made the same complaints but that the administration won't listen.
15:16 <Kovitikus> So... yep. Why even bother?
15:16 <alephate> What were your complaints?
15:16 <Kovitikus> I dunno.
15:16 <Kovitikus> It was a couple of months ago.
15:16 <Kovitikus> I didn't .save() them to the database.
15:16 <alephate> sorry, I'm not a rabid fan or anything, I don't like them either. but probably for completely different reasons
15:16 <alephate> haha I see
15:16 <Kovitikus> It wasn't worth the hard drive space to log the experience.
15:16 <Kovitikus> I got my own game to worry about.
15:18 <FibS> I haven't written a single line of code for my game yet because I'm still learning how Evennia works and mindstorming ideas, HOWEVER one of the things I'm planning for it will help with this   the first character an account makes has limited options and as they level up characters they unlock more options for newer ones (or rebirthing the same one)  this primarily applies to options that would make the character more challenging to play but
15:18 not necessarily weaker (such as a race with less equipment options but higher raw stats, or a race that can't talk.)
15:19 <FibS> i don't want to make the entire game fashion game, but i dont want players to be confused by meta right at the start, etc
15:19 evdemo [Public] Tim disconnected from the Evennia demo.
15:20 DiscordBot <alephate> That's a clever idea, some games I played (ones I really loved) would give you RP points every month depending how you played, and you could use those after dying to unlock other races and things. Initially you'd only be able to choose certain options and that took away some of the decision fatigue for a newbie.
15:21 <alephate> It also helped keep certain races at like a certain quality level, like if someone was a cyborg with superpowers then they definitely wouldn't be able to be played by a one-off troll that was just harassing people and not roleplaying
15:22 <FibS> it's not quite a remort system so i haven't been calling it that, but one of the "prestige races" i already wrote down an early possible idea for is  (and keep in mind this is one of those FF-based muds)  a chocobo, you can't talk, you can only equip claws/helmet/barding/saddle, you have boosted carry capacity and mobility, other players can mount you with your permission  this would be a fundamentally different game experience so i figure
15:22 it shouldn't be presented to a brand new player
15:22 <Kovitikus> Yeah. My game will have plenty of account-level meta progression. So I can utilize that to place milestones of where I think a player should be in their exposure to the game to acquire certain complexity.
15:22 <alephate> That's awesome, I've never played a FF based mud but I love FF
15:23 <FibS> i really like that evennia by defualt distinguishes account + character, a lot of older MUDs like Cleft and Aardwolf don't have that distinction so multi-charactering is a little more awkward and they have to tell you the rules
15:23 <Kovitikus> Yeah, where you have to make a whole new account just to play a different character.
15:24 <FibS> They're on a much older codebase that didn't have that feature sadly
15:24 <FibS> any new MUDs made from this point onward ought to be a lot more flexible

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