All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 paulproteus Doesn't seem to do anything anymore.
00:00 Paging Dr. pythonian4000
00:00 IShadowed Okee meeting time
00:00 paulproteus All aboard!
00:00 * IShadowed waves
00:00 britta greetings!
00:00 IShadowed hi!
00:00 paulproteus I am going to sit down somewhere more comfortable, back in 30s.
00:01 IShadowed fair enough
00:01 paulproteus IShadowed: Can you ping all the people who said they might show up, and then tell us the first agenda item?
00:02 IShadowed Everyone whose nick I know is already here, or not online
00:02 britta aldeka: ping!
00:02 paulproteus zz_satyag: wake up! (;
00:02 IShadowed Oops, missed that one
00:02 maackk joined #openhatch
00:02 IShadowed :)
00:03 So, introductions then. Who are we/ what might we want to do this month?
00:03 paulproteus http://lists.openhatch.org/pip[…]ugust/003234.html has the meeting plan
00:03 Hi maackk!
00:03 : D
00:03 IShadowed That should be agenda item #1
00:03 paulproteus Nice to see you here.
00:03 maackk Hi paulproteus! Thanks for the welcome :)
00:03 paulproteus I'm Asheesh ; this month, I'm going to be doing a lot of travel and being at conferences, but I can spend some time hacking.
00:03 * aldeka wvaes
00:03 aldeka *waves
00:03 britta I'm interested in improving wiki pages and other forms of documentation, and I'd love to find opportunities to do casual user testing of OpenHatch
00:04 paulproteus My ability to focus my attention on code has become lower over the past ~1y or so, which is why I'm so excited people like britta and IShadowed are around.
00:04 IShadowed I'm Courtney, pretty new to open source (but long-time contributor to WP). Probably best suited to working on less technical things for right now, but y'know, always willing to learn :)
00:04 aldeka I'm Karen; I haven't contributed technically in a while but I draw and design stuff sometimes, and have Opinions about UX :)
00:04 IShadowed :)
00:05 paulproteus Oh, yeah, I'm Asheesh, and I was one of the people who started this thing.
00:05 I like backend bugs more than UX/UI bugs, by a lot.
00:05 IShadowed :P
00:05 paulproteus I'm willing to review code.
00:05 maackk: psst who are you (;
00:05 (I know who you are, but no one else does!)
00:05 maackk Hi everyone, I'm Katherine. New to FOSS, but not to coding. Also, not used to IRC.
00:06 britta I don't write code but I have a bunch of support/documentation/bug-filing/UX/testing/etc. experience
00:06 paulproteus I met Katherine at a party in Portland on the Thursday of OSCON!
00:06 maackk But what I get is that this is pretty informal, so I'll hang around and see if I can help out with things/get involved.
00:06 IShadowed documentation sounds pretty interesting to me as well
00:06 * paulproteus thanks his lucky stars.
00:06 maackk xD
00:06 paulproteus A friend (the elusive m_stone) recommended http://www.designstaff.org/archive.html to me recently.
00:07 One major focus of mine is getting daveeloo_'s work (called "greenhouse") and sunu's work on new improved training missions solid enough to land in the main website.
00:07 He is sitting here next to me, memory-optimizing that codebase.
00:08 http://daveeloo.blogspot.com/ is his GSoC blog
00:08 IShadowed I saw the greenhouse repo, was just slightly unsure of what it does
00:08 but woo
00:08 * IShadowed clicks
00:09 aldeka IShadowed: The idea is to track new (and old) Debian packagers and encourage maintainers to give them friendly emails/encouragements, I believe.
00:09 paulproteus Summary is that it's a Debian-specific (for now) toolkit for making a todo list of people who contributed to the project, oriented around letting people create "Member Encouragement Teams" within their projects (e.g. within Debian)
00:09 what she said
00:09 * IShadowed nosd
00:09 IShadowed nods, rather
00:09 m_stone ("recommended" is a bit strong, but an earlier conversation with paulproteus made me think that the posts might be worth a skim, if only to capture the agenda of the design sprint)
00:09 IShadowed there's a similar initiative on WP to encourage new editors and such
00:10 paulproteus (-: m_stone
00:10 m_stone IShadowed: is WP Wordpress or Wikipedia or...?
00:10 IShadowed Wikipedia :)
00:10 paulproteus WordPerfect
00:10 IShadowed Also, time's up, might want to move on unless we've anything else to discuss here
00:10 m_stone Well put. :-)
00:11 paulproteus Okay, fine, what is next? (:
00:11 IShadowed Next item is hearing from everyone which bugs they think are important to address this month
00:11 paulproteus Everyone, speak at once; IRC can handle it.
00:11 IShadowed I've been eyeing http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue623 myself, since I'm pretty keen on making sure mission instructions are clear
00:11 paulproteus There's two serious oh-bugimporters (code that goes and downloads bugs from various projects' bug trackers) issues.
00:12 IShadowed I think there's also a bug report that suggests making some shell missions, too
00:12 I might be able to tackle that
00:12 paulproteus http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue871 (Google Code doesn't work anymore) and http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue872 (trivial issue in Bugzilla importers)
00:12 IShadowed Ooh, and this one http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue456
00:12 * IShadowed bounces
00:13 paulproteus Oh, hey, I saw Burt2Burt in Portland a few weeks ago.
00:13 Maybe we should ping her on the bug and see if she is still excited about it.
00:13 Either way, we should work on addressing it.
00:13 IShadowed indeed :)
00:13 paulproteus IShadowed: I have also dreamed in the past of a mailing list training mission, and lizzard (not here at moment) and I dreamed of a bug triage training mission.
00:13 IShadowed Ah, this is the one I was referencing earlier https://openhatch.org/bugs/issue863
00:13 paulproteus I love writing backends and crafting unit tests and sometimes I am willing to write human-readable text.
00:14 maackk Yeah, Asheesh directed me to http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue872, so I'll take a look at that one since it's pretty low-hanging fruit.
00:14 * IShadowed nods
00:14 paulproteus That would be super mega awesome, maackk.
00:14 britta it sounds like training missions will be easier to write when oppia is integrated? i don't quite understand what oppia is, but that's the impression i've gotten from reading irc
00:14 paulproteus Yeah, that's the idea of the oppia "port".
00:14 You might want to check out its website; let me get a link
00:15 britta so maybe those tasks are better to delay until oppia is ready?
00:15 paulproteus https://oppiaserver.appspot.com/ + http://code.google.com/p/oppia/
00:15 I would say, improving existing missions is fine and useful to do pre-oppia-ification.
00:15 Writing new ones slightly less so, but writing what I call plot lines for new ones seems totally doable pre-oppia-ification.
00:16 It'd be great if sunu's oppia-ification of /missions/ can land this month.
00:16 "plot lines" as in, the text that we expect people to go through.
00:16 We also have to decide what the UI of the new training missions will look like.
00:16 I guesss there's no bug filed for this yet.
00:17 There was a thread on Devel, http://lists.openhatch.org/pip[…]-July/003224.html
00:17 I think that basically sunu and I settled on, "Port the code for now, and we'll use the default Oppia UI for now", but we'll need to have some kind of reasonable plan for that before it lands.
00:18 * IShadowed notes
00:18 paulproteus If people here who care about UI want to play with Oppia and the existing missions, then you'll know enough to have opinions on that.
00:18 https://github.com/openhatch/oh-mainline/pull/123 AKA http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue870 would be great to close this month.
00:19 That one's in progress by ArcTanSusan (that's her IRC nick anyway)
00:19 britta i like that one. i'm glad it's being worked on!
00:19 paulproteus That's great that you like it!
00:20 The current UI is such a mess that I find thinking about what to fix overwhelming.
00:20 But there are actually a bunch of great "usability" tickets already filed.
00:20 http://openhatch.org/bugs/issu[…]&%40action=search
00:21 Some of these are bugs in our bug tracker, or at least how our bug tracker is configured.
00:21 We could decide to up and move the bug tracker to e.g. Github, so then people can't complain about the bug tracker since we would then have no control over it (-;
00:21 The bug tracker is something that requires almost no maintenance, but also has almost no maintainers.
00:21 IShadowed ... :P
00:22 paulproteus Its one great feature is login integration.
00:22 So you just show up and your existing login to the OpenHatch site flows through.
00:22 However, this is sometimes confusing rather than awesome.
00:23 Anyway.
00:23 m_stone paulproteus: I don't find the bug-tracker to be a huge hurdle but I could use more info about what you (and the other triagers here( think is really important....
00:23 paulproteus Yeah; I think what is really important is cleaning up the click flows so they are reasonable, and fixing critical backend bugs, like those in oh-bugimporters.
00:24 At least that's what I consider important within what I consider "the main OpenHatch website".
00:24 m_stone That is: what are we trying to optimize for and, e.g., how much is a 1% improvement in site traffic or sign ups worth vs. putting on an extra OH-comes-to-campus vs....?
00:24 paulproteus Things that support those goals include having the developer documentation be clearer.
00:25 Another thing I'd love to see, but will not be able to put any work into this month, is the ever-delayed goal of making openhatch.org/search/ be oriented around projects (meaning, communities), rather than oriented around tasks (meaning, bugs in projects).
00:25 I believe that's important because I have qualitative feedback from people that, unlike me, they don't immediately recognize every single one of the projects available to browse through at openhatch.org/search/ .
00:25 A meta remark here is that we don't do anything smart with looking at where people click and where they seem to get stuck, aka web analytics.
00:26 re: trade-offs... for one thing, better training missions make campus.openhatch.org events better!
00:26 m_stone paulproteus: and even if we did, the data + analysis aren't available to mere mortals?
00:26 paulproteus Yeah, but we could change that and make the data+analysis available to anyone who e.g. has landed a patch and that I have personally approved, or something.
00:27 Kind of like how "the login team" <http://openhatch.readthedocs.o[…]r/login_team.html> works.
00:27 Although really landing a patch isn't important per se; having contributed something is what's important.
00:28 I think right now, with little data except qualitative, that people reliably say the site is hard to use, and fixing that seems more important than adding new components to it.
00:28 If I really believed that, you might say, "Why are you working with daveeloo_ on a new component?"
00:28 britta i could work on a wiki page writing out current development goals in a more structured format
00:29 to help us evaluate tasks/bugs
00:29 paulproteus I'll leave that aside for now...?
00:29 m_stone Britta:
00:29 You also mentioned that you had UX testing experience?
00:30 britta m_stone: i've done casual user testing yeah
00:30 m_stone aldeka: and I know you've thought lots about the site UX
00:30 paulproteus m_stone: Plus there are two other people who, at least a few weeks ago by private mail, seemed interested in UXing, Flora and Heather. See devel archives.
00:30 m_stone aldeka: are there tickets in place for the UX changes that you think are most important?
00:31 aldeka m_stone: Frankly I have no idea.
00:31 The bugtracker is terrifyingly full of bugs.
00:31 I tend to avoid looking at it.
00:31 m_stone *rimshot*
00:31 paulproteus britta: That would be splendid re: development goals.
00:32 m_stone Hmmm.
00:32 paulproteus http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue867 is another possibly-simple issue, where the person who said they'd look into it just needs to be pinged.
00:32 It basically implies that the bug tracker is the best place for bugs filed against the wiki content, which makes enough sense, but isn't actually something I had thought about when setting up either the bug tracker or the wiki.
00:33 IShadowed blergh API :P
00:33 paulproteus IShadowed: ?
00:33 IShadowed API is scary and often poorly documented :P
00:33 paulproteus Well, this is the Twitter API, which is probably reasonably well-documented. I don't know for sure, though.
00:34 * IShadowed thinks otherwise, but anyways
00:34 paulproteus (-:
00:34 I don't know, I just work here (;
00:34 britta i will write a comment on that bug asking if the person is still interested in working on it
00:34 paulproteus I mean, I don't know, I just want to make sure the page works well for people who use it.
00:34 Yay britta
00:34 One thing we've done in the past is put tickets into a milestone, if we believe that they are something we want to care especially about this month.
00:35 For that to work, I ought to make sure there is a milestone called 0.13.9 (if we keep our old convention 0.year.month and name it for the month it gets released in)
00:35 (I forget, did we used to name it for the month where worked happened or when it was released?)
00:35 I'll create 0.13.08
00:35 m_stone paulproteus: as a different thought: do you/aldeka have some kind of a graphic showing all of the screens on the site along with the transitions between them?
00:35 IShadowed this is what the "Goals this month" thing on the bug tracker links to: https://openhatch.org/wiki/0.12.06
00:35 so... it looks wildly outdated :P
00:35 paulproteus IShadowed: one sec, let me fix that (-:
00:36 m_stone paulproteus: I ask because, if you did, I
00:36 aldeka m_stone: Nope.
00:36 paulproteus We don't, but I think that'd be essential to clarifying what progress meant
00:36 IShadowed "Goals (in wiki)"*
00:37 m_stone bet it would be straight forward to print it out or to open it up in $EDITOR and to scribble on it a quick summary of where the super-confusing part are?
00:37 paulproteus wiki is fix't
00:37 Now 0.13.08 is "current milestone"
00:38 I mean, not wiki, but openhatch.org/bugs/ and what wiki page it links to
00:38 m_stone That way, aldeka wouldn't have to confront the teeming hordes of bugs in order to give direction to any
00:38 paulproteus Note that that page is empty at the moment
00:38 m_stone: I think that is right
00:38 m_stone *to more people.
00:38 paulproteus http://lists.openhatch.org/pip[…]ugust/003231.html is my notion of how to ask people to do that
00:39 m_stone paulproteus: much easier to read red circles than essays.
00:40 paulproteus britta: The training mission fixes you wanted to see done; can you add them to the 0.13.08 milestone via the bug tracker?
00:40 britta hmm i don't think that was me?
00:40 paulproteus Interesting point you make, m_stone : D
00:40 er, oh, maybe it was IShadowed? I will read scrollback
00:40 IShadowed it was me, I can add them :)
00:40 paulproteus Yes, totes IShadowed. Mea culpa
00:40 (toets == totally)
00:40 IShadowed :P
00:40 paulproteus er, totes. Anyway.
00:41 britta paulproteus: so from my experience of UX testing, i've learned that my guesses about UX difficulties are not reliably the actual UX difficulties that newbies encounter, so i hesitated on responding to your post
00:41 paulproteus Mm, interesting.
00:41 IShadowed Also, time's up for this item (but carry on if necessary!) The next was suggest/address potential improvements to the wiki and hear other suggestions for improvement/maintenance on OpenHatch
00:42 m_stone Shall we extend the previous discussion for, say, 10min to try to reach closure?
00:42 britta paulproteus: i am thinking of getting involved with my local makerspace for various reasons, and one is that maybe i can find people there to test openhatch on
00:42 paulproteus That would be amazing, britta.
00:42 britta from the list you posted earlier, http://www.designstaff.org/art[…]s-2012-11-27.html is relevant!
00:42 IShadowed m_stone, whatever works :)
00:42 m_stone britta: what else would help you to collect valid feedback?
00:43 britta m_stone: mostly my issue is that i need victims, i mean candidates!
00:43 maackk paulproteus/britta: Since I'm new to the openhatch UI, I'd be happy to write out a couple goals that a user might have in using the site, and try to perform them myself (it sounds like that's what http://lists.openhatch.org/pip[…]ugust/003231.html was suggesting, so maybe that would be helpful?)
00:44 in short: I can be victim :)
00:44 britta that sounds good!
00:44 paulproteus maackk: That seems entirely sane to me; I think m_stone suggests doing that with annotated screenshots instead; other thoughts welcome
00:44 maackk That sounds like a reasonable way to document the experience.
00:44 m_stone paulproteus: also, have we gotten all of Heather + Flora's feedback into an actionable form?
00:44 paulproteus I bet there are some simple tools for making these sorts of web UX flow diagrams.
00:44 m_stone: No! Rather, I think I've gotten none of it at all.
00:44 Oh, wait, that's not true.
00:45 We got lots and lots at PyCon sprints and filed bugs.
00:45 So for the part from PyCon sprints, yes, it's all in the glorious bug tracker.
00:45 britta i've found that watching people is incredibly interesting because they almost unconsciously make mouse movements etc as they try to find things, and those mistakes are sometimes the most important
00:45 aldeka I guess I have some concerns that... our problem isn't that we don't have enough UX feedback.
00:45 Our problem is we don't have the bandwidth to do things with it.
00:45 paulproteus Hush, don't say that; it'll discourage people from trying!
00:45 m_stone IShadowed: would meeting and facilitating the collection of Heather + Flora's feedback be so etching you would enjoy?
00:46 britta i am thinking that maybe the issue is not having a way to figure out what is most important? i also suppose i don't know where to find the existing feedback
00:46 paulproteus (At least that's how I see it, aldeka.)
00:46 m_stone aldeka: Thanks for speaking up.
00:46 paulproteus I think it's both, aldeka, which is why I like the idea of fixing some UX bugs this release cycle to demonstrate we have non-zero bandwidth, and also in parallel doing what britta is suggesting.
00:46 IShadowed sorry, had to respond to something quick
00:46 * IShadowed returns
00:46 paulproteus IShadowed: np
00:46 * IShadowed scrolls up
00:46 aldeka I'm much more interested in prioritization + finding ways to get more people looped in changing things, for better (or for worse, even!).
00:47 And, yes, finding the existing feedback.
00:47 I guess that's like step 0.
00:47 paulproteus aldeka: One nice thing going on is that ArcTanSusan is just quietly submitting patches to template bugs as soon as I file them.
00:47 m_stone aldeka: awesome. I have some thoughts there too. (Sorry for the slow typing...)
00:47 IShadowed and sure, I can do that :)
00:47 aldeka paulproteus: parallel is hard. :P
00:48 maackk Britta: some of my friends at university have run HCI testing with screen capturing software as well as using video capture for where the user's attention is. You're thinking you want that type of thing included in any UX research?
00:48 britta i think that is useful! not essential but useful
00:49 i haven't really done testing beyond in-person 'watching the person and asking them questions' testing
00:49 paulproteus I do think that one goal I have is to make sure 0.13.08 is nice and full of reasonable bugs that would be thrilling to see fixed in this release cycle. I don't want to see this meeting take much longer than 1h, so I will see if I can add some more bugs to 0.13.08 that seem useful and plausible in the background
00:50 IShadowed cool beans
00:50 m_stone paulproteus: makes sense. How about you and I and aldeka have another conversation at
00:50 aldeka b
00:50 m_stone A convenient time on how to get the UX patche stream flowing more smoothly
00:51 paulproteus Sure, and I'd be happy if others want to join in on that.
00:51 m_stone Sure.
00:51 paulproteus Heck, I'd even be reasonably happy to not be around for it, if that happens to be a plausible thing to suggest.
00:51 But I am also happy to be around for it.
00:52 m_stone well, fwiw, my main comment on it is that you aren't advertising forcefully on the web that you want it done. :-)
00:53 paulproteus Oh, interesting (-:
00:54 m_stone Okay. Is there a small UX bug that someone can commit to trying to fix for this release?
00:55 maackk Britta: It's definitely useful for reviewing after the fact, instead of trying to write down all of the user's reactions during testing. That's how testing has been conducted at my university in the HCI dept., anyway. And if that's the direction you want with testing, I have access to software for that type of research.
00:55 m_stone (whether by hook or by crook) so that we can have a nice line in the release notes?
00:55 maackk Also, open question: how do we all stay in contact about issues we discuss in IRC after the fact? Just send additional information out to the whole mailing list?
00:56 * m_stone stares at http://openhatch.org/bugs/issu[…]&%40action=search
00:56 paulproteus maackk: Right -- converse either on the appropriate bug, or on IRC, or on the devel mailing list
00:56 And make sure the conversation, if on IRC, if it was important, gets archived on the bug or a mailing list thread
00:57 (if IRC convo is one-off, it's fine to just leave it where it is)
00:57 maackk mmk, thanks
00:57 britta http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue303 appears to no longer be an issue on http://openhatch.org/account/signup/ - it no longer mentions anything about case-sensitivity. so i will close it
00:57 (i was staring at the list m_stone is staring at)
00:57 oh hm
00:58 IShadowed It looks like we've already started to assign bugs, which was the only other agenda item :)
00:58 britta i wasn't reading the comments properly
00:58 m_stone paulproteus: who can do the review of the issue870 pull request?
00:59 paulproteus I think there are about 8 people who are part of the admin team on Github who have permission to merge it.
00:59 Anyone is welcome to give comments, though!
00:59 maackk Shoot, well, I have to take off.
00:59 satyag paulproteus, just got up :P
00:59 paulproteus Mornin' satyag
00:59 maackk Nice meeting everyone! And thanks for the invite, Asheesh.
00:59 britta maackk: thanks for offering the software. i will post on the mailing list if i want to ask for that :)
01:00 paulproteus Ciao maackk!!
01:00 IShadowed see you :)
01:00 m_stone maackk: good night!
01:00 * satyag reading through the logs
01:01 paulproteus Wow, today I learned that kiwiirc exists!
01:01 marktraceur Good morning from Wikimania 2013, y'all :)
01:01 paulproteus https://kiwiirc.com/docs/development and it's free software
01:01 egad hi marktraceur
01:01 IShadowed pretty jealous I couldn't make it this year
01:01 WM12 was amazing :3
01:02 paulproteus o.O did I meet you there, IShadowed...?
01:02 britta paulproteus: the irc channel i moderate keeps switching between recommending kiwiirc and freenode webchat. kiwiirc is prettier but drops connections if a person on mobile ios switches tabs
01:02 marktraceur IShadowed: In Wikimania fashion, it's hot as all hell
01:02 paulproteus britta: Interesting.
01:02 IShadowed Uh, perhaps!
01:02 * aldeka adds some bugs to the milestone
01:02 IShadowed I was there, after all
01:02 paulproteus m_stone: Did I answer your question about review?
01:02 marktraceur Er, heck? paulproteus are we PG-13 or PG?
01:03 paulproteus I don't remember re: PG or PG-13
01:03 geofft britta: Hm, sounds like there's a use-case for IRC over HTTP over mosh over HTTP
01:03 marktraceur Heh.
01:03 paulproteus m_stone: Also I believe I have responded to the latest version of that patch.
01:03 aldeka marktraceur: Disney deaths only, please.
01:03 paulproteus We could have a development process so that the bug tracker indicates that.
01:03 marktraceur aldeka: I'll cue up my five-second "NOOOOO" .wav file
01:03 paulproteus britta: You might enjoy http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/[…]DevelopmentSystem
01:04 aldeka fallintoabottomlesspit.gif
01:04 paulproteus (and then wonder why OpenHatch is not disciplined) (and then fiddle with the state of things so it becomes more disciplined)
01:04 marktraceur The six second PG-13 version has a splat at the end
01:04 m_stone paulproteus: you handed me a thunk and, while I'm sure it's a beautiful thunk
01:04 ...
01:04 britta paulproteus: ok i will read that!
01:04 paulproteus m_stone: I like your sentence but I am not sure I understand!
01:04 Oh, I see.
01:04 Yeah, okay, let me go see who's in that list!
01:04 britta aldeka: thanks for staying on topic with adding bugs to the milestone. i got stuck trying to evaluate the bugs in http://openhatch.org/bugs/issu[…]startwith=0&%40qu
01:05 some of them are bugs with the bugtracker which i mentally discarded
01:06 paulproteus [aldeka, berryp, jesstess, jwm aka johnmorr, pythonian4000, nyergler, danchoi, shaunagm]
01:06 m_stone paulproteus: I was really asking: must we wait for the work you requested to be done?
01:06 paulproteus What is the work I requested that you are considering waiting on? I will read scrollback and see if I can figure it out, also.
01:07 m_stone paulproteus: in the ticket. or should we reduce the batch size, ship the available patch, and update the issue (or write a new one) for the remaining work.
01:07 paulproteus Oh, I see.
01:07 Interesting.
01:08 aldeka paulproteus: Maybe this is another whole meeting, but... I think we should cut some parts of the site.
01:08 (Which would then let us close bugs.)
01:08 paulproteus m_stone: You're saying: "What if we mergehttps://github.com/openhatch/oh-mainline/pull/123 and file a new bug requesting that the old boxes be re-added"?
01:08 I... guess that would be okay.
01:08 I find myself slightly weirded out by it, but overall I think it'd be fine.
01:09 Mostly I'm unhappy that ArcTanSusan wouldn't learn to read the bug more carefully, to be entirely frank.
01:09 Ashsong joined #openhatch
01:09 aldeka :/
01:09 * aldeka is all for getting rid of the logged-in front page, it's never been very good
01:09 paulproteus Reading bugs carefully and submitting precise correct-from-the-start patches speeds up my review queue
01:09 (Unless ArcTanSusan is also the one to file that new bug, or update it, or something)
01:09 Ashsong paulproteus: I don't understand the patch+ticket well enough to have an informed opinion on what the right choice is.
01:10 paulproteus: however, the math is clear that reducing batch sizes tends to speed up cycle time.
01:10 paulproteus "reducing batch sizes" -- can you clarify?
01:10 Ashsong paulproteus: sure. the batch size is the amount of work that you're trying to send through a process in one go.
01:10 paulproteus But also I think that we're now spending a while talking about a particular bug, so perhaps IShadowed should end the meeting so everyone else can go home while aldeka and m_stone and I figure this out
01:10 Ah, interesting.
01:11 Ashsong here, you've got some work stalled in queue because its batch isn't finished.
01:11 IShadowed 'kay, meeting over :P
01:11 * IShadowed literal
01:11 Ashsong :-)
01:11 aldeka BAM
01:11 IShadowed :D
01:11 paulproteus Yeah, well, okay. I propose that aldeka or I review and merge that patch as-is, and file a corresponding new bug.
01:11 I could do that, I suppose.
01:11 I will get on it.
01:12 Ashsong paulproteus: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07[…]gewanted=all&_r=0
01:12 paulproteus Can someone tests https://github.com/openhatch/oh-mainline/pull/124 for me?
01:12 test, that is
01:12 by "for me" I mean "for great justice and for everyone" but I also kind of mean "as a favor to me to make me feel excellent while doing this other thing"
01:12 Ashsong paulproteus: possibly.
01:12 paulproteus BTW the code is really easy to make a running instance of (-:
01:13 Ashsong paulproteus: I can at least tell you how painful it was to get OH installed, to run the test suite, etc. :-)
01:13 paulproteus: ...we shall see.
01:14 paulproteus IShadowed: Thanks! Do you want to send an email to the list summarizing what happened, and linking to the log?
01:15 Ashsong paulproteus: questions so far: "googled 'install openhatch'; is http://openhatch.readthedocs.o[…]installation.html the right page?"
01:15 IShadowed Sure
01:15 paulproteus Ashsong: Yup
01:15 Ashsong paulproteus: sure. just meant to point out that it wasn't stupidly obvious that the answer was "YES!"
01:15 paulproteus Oh, I see.
01:16 Ashsong since that page wasn't on the list of google hits. :-)
01:16 paulproteus It's not my fault if Google doesn't do stemming (-;
01:17 Ashsong paulproteus: the top hits were "Advanced installation" on oh.readthedocs, "Install git bash", a BPW OH wiki page, Twitter something, skillshare, ...
01:17 paulproteus Oh, no, not advanced installation!
01:17 Aiee.
01:18 Ashsong Ah, the joys of UX testing...
01:20 britta IShadowed: thanks for helping make the meeting happen! this was exciting
01:20 IShadowed no problem :)
01:20 thanks for coming!
01:21 Ashsong IShadowed: indeed, thanks for helping to organize this!
01:21 IShadowed :)
01:21 paulproteus britta: Yeah! I hope you learned something, and that soon with all your knowledge you will know enough to stage a revolution and turn our priorities upside-up.
01:21 Ya, thanks to IShadowed for calling.
01:22 aldeka :)
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01:22 gitcommits 01[13oh-mainline01] 15paulproteus pushed 2 new commits to 06master: 02http://git.io/xJBpVg
01:22 13oh-mainline/06master 14da01b71 15SusanTan: Removed landing page for logged in users. Same landing pg for both anon and logged-in users.
01:22 13oh-mainline/06master 145ee2191 15paulproteus: Merge pull request #123 from onceuponatimeforever/870...
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01:22 Ashsong paulproteus: what is the URL for the "Manage Projects" page that I'm supposed to be testing?
01:23 paulproteus let me see, one sec
01:23 Ashsong paulproteus: perhaps I need to be logged in to my test instance?
01:23 paulproteus Yes
01:23 Log in, and then go to your profile page, and click "Add/edit projects"
01:23 Ashsong (btw: congrats on the comparatively clean demo-install flow)
01:24 paulproteus : D
01:25 Ashsong paulproteus: I think you can simplify it further for most users to just "make" or "make.bat", but what you have is a good start already. :-)
01:26 paulproteus Ashsong: Also, a sysadmin-y question coming in to you soon from daveeloo_
01:26 daveeloo_ hi, does anyone know a linux command that will give you the most amount of memory every used by a process
01:27 for example, if i run a python script, python program.py
01:27 Ashsong daveeloo_: I think you're looking for a thing called a "memory profiler"
01:27 geofft bsd process accounting?
01:27 britta low-priority 'hmm' comment: could it be helpful to list a few "featured" projects on http://openhatch.org/search/ that are particularly good at welcoming new contributors? to help people get started who don't know how to get started? that could be another option below "example searches"
01:28 Ashsong daveeloo_: your question doesn't have a simple(r) answer though because "memory" isn't well-defined -- you could mean RSS, vsize, or a few other things.
01:28 daveeloo_ is there a linux program similiar like "time python program.py" that will return the most memory ever used at any point
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01:28 paulproteus Perhaps it's good to explain why you need the info, i.e. what problem you're trying to solve, daveeloo_
01:28 Ashsong daveeloo_: valgrind
01:28 paulproteus britta: Yeah, that is almost definitely easy to do, socially and technically.
01:29 Ashsong daveeloo_: maybe others too. but as paulproteus says: what are you actually trying to do?
01:29 britta paulproteus: ok! is this a "file a bug" kind of task or a "send a note to the mailing list" kind of task?
01:29 daveeloo_ ashsong: im trying to run an import script and see whats the most amount of memory it ever uses
01:30 it has a for loop that does database calls, and im trying to see which database call uses the most memory
01:30 paulproteus britta: Semi-both? It's "Figure out what it would take to get it done, and then file bugs where code changes are the requirement and send mail to Devel or elsewhere if other things are required"
01:30 satyag paulproteus, cool so my take would be oppia traction and new blood in community
01:30 Ashsong daveeloo_: for python, I've had good experiences with heapy / guppe-pe: http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/#Heapy
01:31 paulproteus daveeloo_: Beyond that, why do you want to know what the most memory it uses is?
01:31 (I mean, I know what the reason is, but you don't seem to be saying it as clearly as I could, so I want to tease it out of you)
01:31 britta: I guess, "send mail, get consensus on a plan, then file bugs"
01:31 We'd probably want to have some web UI for choosing which projects are basically the "Editor's choice" projects.
01:31 daveeloo_ paulproteus, ashsong: the machien that will be running the import script has a limited amount of memory and kills the process if it exceeds that amount
01:31 paulproteus But we could do that in some hackish way through a CLI UI instead.
01:32 daveeloo_ so im trying to limit the database queries in such a way that it doesnt exceed that limit
01:32 britta paulproteus: i suppose i can just pick one and see what happens, to avoid causing decision fatigue :)
01:32 ok
01:32 paulproteus I imagine shauna__ will have some thoughts.
01:33 Right now we don't have any "admin-y" section of the site.
01:33 We could really just make it so that any user can check a checkbox for a project in the project editing section, AKA "+projedit", that is called, basically, "Featured project?".
01:34 Maybe we should only show that to people whose site user is some magic type, and then we have some process for giving users like you and me the ability to feature a project.
01:34 Django has an is_staff attribute we could use for this.
01:35 I and other people who have is_staff could be authorized by the web app to mark other people as is_staff.
01:35 And then the "Featured project?" checkbox could appear just for those users who have is_staff.
01:36 britta sure
01:36 paulproteus Now I just have to think through where the checkbox appears for making people as staff.
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01:39 m_stone_ daveeloo_: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Doc[…]groups/memory.txt will also do what you want.
01:39 paulproteus Sadly, each user's "edit" link for their user info goes to the same place -- http://openhatch.org/profile/views/edit_info -- note that the URL does not contain a username.
01:39 m_stone_ see the "*.max_usage_in_bytes" fields
01:40 paulproteus But we could maybe change that URL, and then also let staff view that edit link for any user.
01:40 And so then users can be marked as staff by any staff member.
01:40 britta i suppose my intuition is that the 'featured projects' wouldn't need to change very often, that they would mostly be big projects with staff, like mediawiki and ubuntu, so...would it be horrible for them to be hardcoded? (sounds easier! but maybe that is terrible)
01:40 paulproteus All this just to mark projects as featured? Hmm.
01:40 Yeah, I agree with you, we could do something simpler.
01:40 satyag sunu, ping
01:41 paulproteus Hard-coded actually sounds fine to me, having said all of the above.
01:43 m_stone_ daveeloo_: have I given you helpful advice here or have I left you more confused than when you started?
01:45 britta ok! email will include tiny summary of thought on implementation
01:45 paulproteus Okay! (-:
01:46 Also to those who like writing developer docs, http://openhatch.org/bugs/issue468
01:47 daveeloo_ m_stone_: im getting a better idea of whats going on! thanks for your help
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01:47 m_stone_ daveeloo_: you're most welcome. https://access.redhat.com/site[…]e/sec-memory.html seems to be the most complete example I've seen so far for how to deal with this stuff
01:47 (using the memcg approach, anyway)
01:47 paulproteus Ooh, *click*
01:49 satyag m_stone, well it too has gone through many irerations , seen just html pages intially
01:49 *iterations
01:50 m_stone_ satyag: apologies; I think I'm missing the context for your remark. will you elaborate for me?
01:50 satyag i meant the state it was in a decade back kinds
01:51 the whole documentation on RH
01:53 m_stone_ paulproteus: returning to issue741 for a moment: I don't see a link entitled "Add/edit projects"
01:53 paulproteus: perhaps the link is just "Add/edit", which goes to http://localhost:8000/+portfolio/editor/ ?
01:54 paulproteus Ya, that's what I mean
01:54 Pardon me.
02:01 m_stone_ paulproteus: is there an easy way to register a user from the CLI?
02:02 openhatch_hudson Project Make sure the install instructions work (daily) build #179: SUCCESS in 35 sec: http://vm3.openhatch.org:8080/[…]rk%20(daily)/179/
02:02 paulproteus python mange.py shell_plus
02:02 u = User.objects.create_dummy()
02:02 u.set_password('password')
02:02 u.save()
02:02 # I think
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02:02 paulproteus Wait, no, it's Person who has create_dummy
02:02 p = Person.create_dummy()
02:02 p.user.set_password('password')
02:03 p.user.save() # I think
02:03 I guess I could have had that conversation with manage.py shell_plus
02:04 m_stone_ mmm. would speed up testing if I had a single line to run on master vs. pr/124 to get the DB to the state where FF will let me see whether the CSS is fixed.
02:05 anyhow, I don't think the CSS fix is complete.
02:05 where is the actions menu supposed to be in relation to the portfolio_entry div?
02:09 satyag ani_magg_, can you intro here and let OH community know what you are upto these days ?
02:10 * satyag checking on http://crowdcrafting.org/app/antimatter/
02:10 ani_magg_ Well I am #Just_a_noob, just checking what OH is all about and that's all
02:11 paulproteus Awesome! Hi ani_magg_
02:11 ani_magg_ Hi paulproteus
02:11 paulproteus The site is a bit... multifaceted, and we're trying to improve the user experience of the site this month.
02:11 ani_magg_ yea I was checking the same too
02:11 paulproteus But anyway, we run events and maintain web tools to help people get involved in open source, and we also help people run more welcoming, newcomer-friendly events.
02:12 ani_magg_ sounds awesome for a fresher like me :D
02:12 paulproteus (-: I believe the training mission are the most popular part of the site. openhatch.org/missions/
02:12 m_stone_: well, UI-wise it's supposed to be on the right hand side. But right now due to I don't know what it is beneath them.
02:13 satyag ani_magg_, well you no longer  a noob :P
02:13 ani_magg_, so what i want is check out the http://openhatch.readthedocs.o[…]ting_started.html
02:13 ani_magg_ satyag: you always play those trics with me :P
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02:14 satyag work with sunu , he is working on new missions code
02:14 get our http://www.slideshare.net/arul[…]onth2013-24875864
02:15 classes to the training mission
02:15 with our excercises
02:15 ani_magg_, doable ?
02:15 ani_magg_ yea I am cloning the same
02:15 satyag cool
02:18 ani_magg_, the code is basically django , you played with askbot already so you should be at home
02:19 paulproteus Ooh.
02:19 ani_magg_ hehe, now all I can see is documentation reading, reading and more reading :P
02:19 satyag ani_magg_, oppia is something you need to understand
02:19 sunu, is in our timezone to he can get you to speed
02:19 *so
02:20 paulproteus ani_magg_: To understand oppia, first skim http://code.google.com/p/oppia/ and examine the screenshots carefully
02:20 Then visit https://oppiaserver.appspot.com/ and play around!
02:20 ani_magg_ okay
02:20 i'll just check
02:22 m_stone_ paulproteus: the problem is that there's a div.submodule.clearfix wrapping most of the portfolio_entry editor but not containing the ul.actions
02:22 paulproteus: perhaps it's just a nesting bug in the template?
02:25 paulproteus I think it is likely that very nesting bug in the template.
02:25 Do you want to remark as such on the bug?
02:25 And also, I wonder why Susan thought it was fixed.
02:26 m_stone_ paulproteus: possibly. I'm not sure how it's supposed to interact with multiple portfolio_entries though.
02:26 paulproteus You get a fresh set of actions per portfolio entry.
02:27 m_stone_ also, disabling the clearfix isn't quite enough either -- the porfolio_editor is still too wide.
02:27 portfolio.css:55
02:32 paulproteus: the interior of the div.module-body.contains-submodules is 920px wide, the div.submodule.clearfix is 888px wide, and the ul.action is 86 px wide. that's why it doesn't fit.
02:33 paulproteus Interesting. Why on eart would we make it so wrong?
02:34 s/eart/earth/
02:34 I'd still like to see if we can train up Susan to fix it... although it's moot or something since we know what is wrong.
02:35 I guess someone's gotta decide if it's pedagogy or progress we want more.
02:35 I suppose progress.
02:35 m_stone_ paulproteus: hardly moot.
02:35 m_stone_: I found the Firefox 3D view to be incredibly helpful here.
02:35 paulproteus Oh, interesting.
02:35 I haven't used that much but I remember learning about it.
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02:37 m_stone_ paulproteus: it's how I noticed the nesting problem.
02:37 (if, indeed, that is a problem)
02:37 * m_stone_ still gets confused by the CSS box model + floating + clearing
02:41 paulproteus FWIW I seem to recall someone fixing this at PyCon sprints...
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02:55 m_stone_ paulproteus: I think the reason for having the clearfix div where it is is to get the ul.actions outside of the border of the portfolio-editor.
02:57 paulproteus I bet if Pam Selle were here, she also would know what is up.
02:58 I think having a clearfix class was her invention at PyCon sprints 2012.
02:58 I think that is plausible.
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03:00 m_stone_ paulproteus: patch enroute...
03:01 paulproteus: must I write a nice commit message for you? :-)
03:01 paulproteus Yes, of course (-:
03:01 I bet you'll enjoy having written it, too.
03:01 * m_stone_ grumbles...
03:01 paulproteus The bright-white light of a clear commit log message is glorious.
03:02 m_stone_ grumble. do you at least have a contribution guide that I should steal from?
03:03 paulproteus Like, for a good commit log message?
03:03 We don't, I suppose...
03:03 (if you just give me a raw 'git diff' I will manage, but explaining what you learned about the divs is helpful)
03:06
03:06 (wrong window)
03:07 m_stone_ paulproteus: sometimes, dear, you're a bit of a pushover. :-)
03:07 paulproteus I blame the cold I have.
03:07 m_stone_ paulproteus: ...but I love you anyway, so I'll write your darned commit message.
03:07 paulproteus Well thank you (-:
03:08 The whole community appreciates it!
03:08 m_stone_ Mmmhmm.
03:12 paulproteus I am going to get on a bicycle and ride home, I believe.
03:13 satyag m_stone, well the "pushover" is way of GTD( getting things done) and learning in the process , its a unique feeling only the person who goes through knows its value :-)
03:13 and pains i supoose
03:13 *suppose
03:15 paulproteus, goodnight
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03:32 sunu satyag: Pong!
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03:33 sunu Hi ani_mag. Umm .. he/she is not here.
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10:56 britta i tried fleshing out the release summary: https://openhatch.org/wiki/0.13.08 - it's kind of both a meeting summary and a release summary
11:15 i found https://openhatch.org/wiki/Big_picture_(Feb_2011) interesting to read today while poking around the wiki
11:28 it seems like https://twitter.com/openhatch didn't tweet the july newsletter yet :)
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16:35 shauna__ What will I have opinions on?
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23:26 pythonian4000 paulproteus, you called? For the meeting I assume?
23:28 Also paulproteus, when I said "no rush" I meant you didn't need to respond that hour. However, I *would* appreciate a response this week so I can get on and book flights before they get more expensive :)

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