All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 03:14 | wolftune joined #openhatch | |
| 03:51 | wolftune joined #openhatch | |
| 04:37 | moongazer joined #openhatch | |
| 04:37 | moongazer | hi |
| 04:37 | I would like to contribute to open source | |
| 04:37 | Any programmes that are similar to GSoC? | |
| 04:42 | wolftune joined #openhatch | |
| 05:03 | HedgeMage | moongazer: Heya. |
| 05:03 | moongazer | Hi HedgeMage |
| 05:03 | Could you guide me? | |
| 05:04 | HedgeMage | moongazer: GSoC is currently running, though I suspect that all the slots are taken by now. What were you looking for in terms of similarity? Mentoring? Stipend? Something else? |
| 05:04 | moongazer | Mentoring |
| 05:05 | HedgeMage | What experience level are you at? |
| 05:05 | And what areas are you interested in? | |
| 05:06 | moongazer | HedgeMage, How do I answer the first question? |
| 05:06 | HedgeMage, I could show you my github repo. I have done an internship where I made a toolbox for scilab | |
| 05:06 | I have built a chess engine | |
| 05:07 | Currently I am making contributions to GNUChess | |
| 05:07 | * HedgeMage | nods. |
| 05:08 | HedgeMage | Okay, so it sounds like you have some basic programming down and have been through a contrib workflow, but you don't have experience with serious production software. (correct me if I'm wrong) |
| 05:08 | Are you mostly interested in games, or was that just by happenstance? | |
| 05:08 | moongazer | HedgeMage, https://github.com/universecoder |
| 05:08 | I am also solving a few bugs in bash right now | |
| 05:09 | HedgeMage, as for the first question, you are correct. Although I am mostly able to guide myself through large codebases(only if I know the concepts) | |
| 05:09 | HedgeMage | Bash is something that could definitely use some help. If you're interested in stuff like that (systems and infrastructure software) feel free to stop by #newguard Most of our community is a bit more advanced than you, but as long as you are polite it's a good place to hang out anyway. |
| 05:10 | moongazer | HedgeMage, nothing like that. I love AI related stuff though |
| 05:10 | HedgeMage | #newguard is a mentoring program for early- and mid-career techies interested in working on critical infrastructure software. |
| 05:10 | AI is a bit out of my area, but if you hang out here in #openhatch someone else may de-idle. | |
| 05:10 | I'm a systems and security geek, mostly. :) | |
| 05:11 | moongazer | HedgeMage, okay |
| 05:11 | Regarding other stuff I told you, any other options? | |
| 05:12 | HedgeMage | It seems like you're already getting involved in projects successfully. I know that some have more mentoring in place than others. #friendly-coders is a good place for general programming chatter. A lot of finding a mentor is to find someone more experienced than you but with similar interests...then you can do work for them while they help you along. |
| 05:14 | moongazer: Anyway, I need to get to bed, but please don't take my vague-ish guidance as a reason not to stick around. In my experience, it really is a matter of meeting a bunch of people until you find a "right fit". :) | |
| 05:15 | moongazer | HedgeMage, wait |
| 05:15 | HedgeMage, I am seeing the #newguard list. Could you tell me more about it? | |
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| 12:07 | CoderEurope | hiya |
| 12:33 | pdurbin | CoderEurope: hello |
| 12:34 | HedgeMage: I'm getting the impression that you're interesting in finding people who have experience with serious production software. | |
| 14:45 | moongazer joined #openhatch | |
| 14:45 | moongazer | HedgeMage, hi |
| 14:59 | pdurbin | moongazer: hi. I took a look at your GitHub profile. Good stuff. |
| 15:37 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: Or who want to. :) |
| 15:37 | pdurbin: My mission is to rescue the stuff that holds the internet up. :) | |
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| 16:07 | pdurbin | It's a good mission. What does "mission accomplished" entail? |
| 16:09 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: I'd say the following: |
| 16:10 | 1) the software we need to maintain an open, not centrally controlled internet is generally well supported, maintained, and secure (fuzzy, I know) | |
| 16:10 | 2) there's a healthy personnel pipeline so that new developers are being brought up and succession planning actually happens | |
| 16:11 | 3) the social standards for securing said software are brought up to modern production standards for software that has become not just economically critical, but life critical | |
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| 16:17 | pdurbin | makes sense |
| 16:18 | HedgeMage | :) |
| 16:30 | moongazer joined #openhatch | |
| 16:30 | moongazer | I got disconnected |
| 16:30 | pdurbin, Thanks you! | |
| 16:30 | HedgeMage, hi | |
| 16:30 | pdurbin, could you provide some advice? | |
| 16:33 | HedgeMage | hi again, moongazer |
| 16:34 | moongazer | HedgeMage, tell me more |
| 16:35 | HedgeMage, about #newguard. I went through the google list there. Couldn't understand it. People tell me that I should use some software before installing it | |
| 16:35 | *before contributing code to it | |
| 16:42 | HedgeMage | Ahh, the gdoc in the topic is just a brainstorming list, don't worry too much about it. |
| 16:42 | you probably use most of the software we care about, you just don't know it. | |
| 16:43 | Do you have an Android or ioS based phone, or a hiking or maritime GPS? If so you use GPSd for navigation. | |
| 16:43 | It's just low level, not exposed to the user. | |
| 16:43 | That's the stuff we work on. :) | |
| 16:46 | moongazer | HedgeMage, well you have looked at my repo and I told you what I can do. Maybe you could guide me in a project. I am interested in; but don't know about networking |
| 16:48 | HedgeMage | moongazer: Well, we have plenty of networking-oriented people in and around #newguard . Start by hanging out in the IRC channel regularly and chatting with folks. Usually what we do is get to know new people, then involve them in side projects (mostly learning to weild or helping to build developer tools), then once they prove to be reliable, do matchmaking with "old guard" mentors to work on their |
| 16:48 | projects. | |
| 16:52 | moongazer | HedgeMage, well aren't you one of them |
| 16:52 | I'll wait for others here to say something as well | |
| 16:52 | Like pdurbin | |
| 16:53 | HedgeMage | moongazer: One of what? Mentors? Networking programmer? Something else? |
| 16:53 | moongazer | HedgeMage, mentors |
| 16:54 | HedgeMage | Yes, I mentor pretty frequently. |
| 16:54 | Here's something you should understand about being a mentor, though (and I should make a note to blog about this)... | |
| 16:56 | If you're qualified enough (at anything) to be a good mentor, you are already busy. On top of that, plenty of people want your mentorship, and mentoring is itself labor-intensive. If you invest lots of your time and energy in random people who ask for mentorship, you ultimately self-destruct from the time and work pressures... | |
| 16:56 | Good mentors fix the problem by staging out a mentorship relationship... | |
| 16:57 | First, you get to know people and find that they seem bright and to have enough shared interests to make things work... | |
| 16:57 | Then, you do some hands-off coaching to see if they actually follow through on things (90% of people are total flakes and will disappear the moment they find that work is expected of them)... | |
| 16:57 | moongazer | and... |
| 16:58 | HedgeMage | If they pass that gateway, you find some project or activity you are already doing, and give them a role so that you can mentor them more closely... the more good work they do, the more of your time/attention they get, because the work offsets some of your time/labor from the project, giving a return on the mentoring instead of it being a burden. |
| 16:59 | pdurbin | moongazer: my team is gearing up to mentor some students this summer. We're going out to lunch tomorrow. |
| 16:59 | HedgeMage | moongazer: You seem to take the typical new-mentee attitude of wanting someone to find you and adopt you as a mentee, and then things start...that's not how it works with good mentors. For the reasons stated above, you have to hang out in the places we hang out and start with teh low-bandwidth stuff, then work your way up. :) |
| 17:00 | moongazer | pdurbin, I don't live in the US |
| 17:00 | HedgeMage, Well, you could try the hands off coaching thing on me | |
| 17:01 | pdurbin | moongazer: what are you hoping to learn through mentorship? Any specific skills? |
| 17:02 | moongazer | pdurbin, I just want to contribute to open source so that I can learn the process and also improve my profile. Also, stuff I have developed indicates my interest and I am interested in networking as well; but I don't know anything about it. As HedgeMage mentioned, I am interested in game ai as well, but I think that's advanced and should wait for now |
| 17:04 | HedgeMage | moongazer: Well, you're in #newguard now, so let's chat there and help you meet others in the group. :) |
| 17:04 | pdurbin | moongazer: makes sense but every team has a slightly different process. If you want to check out the process my team uses, please take a look at https://waffle.io/IQSS/dataverse and https://github.com/IQSS/datave[…]p/CONTRIBUTING.md and please let me know if any of it is confusing. |
| 17:05 | moongazer | HedgeMage, you could introduce me to those people |
| 17:05 | * HedgeMage | looks, too, to see if there are any good ideas she can borrow |
| 17:07 | HedgeMage | brb |
| 17:08 | moongazer | pdurbin, I don't get your project. Do you have anything else? |
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| 17:35 | pdurbin | moongazer: you don't get Dataverse? Maybe reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataverse or the project website might help. I have some personal projects pinned at https://github.com/pdurbin if you're interested. |
| 17:37 | moongazer | Also I am exploring tons of things trying to find out what interests me, how do I keep up? |
| 17:41 | HedgeMage | moongazer: IRC is your friend. When I was starting out, I idled in dozens of channels and experimented with lots of software. |
| 17:41 | It took some bouncing around to find what I was really interested in. | |
| 17:42 | pdurbin | HedgeMage: any good ideas in those links? :) |
| 17:44 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: Mostly pretty standard from my point of view. What I've been looking more for is things that give newbies a very concrete idea of what behaviors help them belong to a dev team, and make them attractive to mentors. |
| 17:45 | pdurbin: That seems to be getting harder to communicate due to some social changes in mainstream-land that are contrary to open source ethos and workflows. | |
| 17:45 | moongazer | HedgeMage, ohh |
| 17:47 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: I think I may blog about this. I've been working to get more writing done in between my various other responsibilities. |
| 17:51 | pdurbin | HedgeMage: in my book, if you make a pull request and I merge it, you're part of the dev team. So I guess the behavior I want is for newbies to make a pull request. :) |
| 17:52 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: Yeah, but that's incredibly non-obvious to younger people. They look at a doc about how to do things, and it completely skips what they want to know (which we don't accept as a concept): How do I get permission to participate? |
| 17:53 | pdurbin: They are raised in a world without pick-up games of this or that, where everything must be registered for and admitted to, directed and organized from above. | |
| 17:53 | pdurbin: They have zero concept that you can just show up and do something, and zero idea that maybe you should prove yourself by doing work before others spend a bunch of time on you. | |
| 17:53 | It's a fault of how childrearing and education have changed in the US. It was getting that way as I was growing up in the 1980s and 1990s, and is much worse now. | |
| 17:54 | I deal with a lot of teens and 20-somethings (as well as a few people my age) who don't get that it's okay to just show up and do stuff. Some even resist the explanation of this phenomenon, because it feels wrong. | |
| 17:56 | pdurbin | HedgeMage: I think that the way I start my CONTRIBUTING.md file gives permission to participate: "Thank you for your interest in contributing to Dataverse! We welcome contributions of ideas, bug reports, usability testing, documentation, code, and more!" |
| 17:57 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: That works on older people, younger people often think you aren't talking to them. |
| 17:57 | moongazer | HedgeMage, yes |
| 17:57 | HedgeMage | "Oh, they mean real developers..." |
| 17:57 | moongazer | I think that:( |
| 17:57 | HedgeMage, I think exactly THAT' | |
| 17:58 | HedgeMage | "oh, they are excited about welcoming the people they just accepted through some process I don't understand" |
| 17:58 | etc | |
| 17:58 | pdurbin | HedgeMage: can you please send a pull request that fixes my CONTRIBUTING.md? |
| 17:59 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: I'll try, but I'm still experimenting with how to overcome this. I haven't found a reliable approach yet. |
| 17:59 | pdurbin | It's a challenge for sure. |
| 18:01 | I'm hoping people come to a lunchtime discusion about encouraging contributions, empowering people, at our upcoming community meeting, as I wrote about at https://groups.google.com/d/ms[…]1GmY/173g-64_BQAJ | |
| 18:04 | moongazer | pdurbin, what I mean is |
| 18:04 | I really can't contribute to something I haven't used | |
| 18:06 | pdurbin | Why not? If I had that attitude I would be paid to work on open source. |
| 18:06 | wouldn't! | |
| 18:06 | let me try that again | |
| 18:07 | If I had the attitude that I can't contribute to an open source project I haven't used then I wouldn't be paid to work on open source. | |
| 18:09 | Of course, perhaps your goal isn't to be paid to work on open source. That's fine. | |
| 18:09 | moongazer: do you use a lot of open source software? | |
| 18:09 | moongazer | pdurbin, I don't understand what that thing is. I only get it vaguely. Whereas I played chess, built a gui, built a chess engine then went on the contribute to open source chess programs. The first was playing chess; then the desire to build came |
| 18:09 | pdurbin, yes | |
| 18:10 | pdurbin | So what problem are you trying to solve? The open source chess community isn't mentoring you? |
| 18:12 | moongazer | pdurbin, That was just an example |
| 18:12 | pdurbin | Maybe they're busy playing chess! :) |
| 18:12 | moongazer | pdurbin, I am adding small stuff toe GNU chess now |
| 18:12 | pdurbin | nice |
| 18:14 | You're probably learning what the GNU chess development process is. | |
| 18:15 | moongazer | pdurbin, no |
| 18:16 | pdurbin, the codebase is small. ~25,000 lines I know it all now | |
| 18:16 | Well, it's had only 1 contrib for 6 years so there is no vcs for it | |
| 18:17 | pdurbin | You were the one contribution in 6 years?!? That's awesome! |
| 18:19 | moongazer | NO |
| 18:19 | NO | |
| 18:19 | NO | |
| 18:19 | I am saying there is only guy so no vcs for it | |
| 18:19 | I am not that guy | |
| 18:20 | pdurbin | oh |
| 18:20 | So you aren't learning how to work with a team. Just the one guy. | |
| 18:26 | moongazer | I worked on a team |
| 18:26 | in my intern | |
| 18:26 | 3 people | |
| 18:27 | pdurbin | That's good. |
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| 18:37 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: PR sent. |
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| 22:52 | pdurbin | HedgeMage: thanks! I just left a comment on https://github.com/IQSS/dataverse/pull/3882 and moved it to code review. |
| 23:04 | HedgeMage | pdurbin: You are very welcome. |
| 23:05 | BTW, apologies for the weird message in the PR. I forgot that one must now override Github's template on a per-project basis instead of once globally if one wants something sane and readable. | |
| 23:20 | pdurbin | Well, we put that template in on purpose. Sorry if it isn't readable. :) |
| 23:42 | HedgeMage | No problem. I just didn't expect it, so instead of dropping useful info into it, my commit message got cut off. :/ |
| 23:44 | pdurbin | Meh, it's fine. Thanks again, HedgeMage |
| 23:44 | HedgeMage | You are quite welcome :) |